Frankly, I don’t know if their processes are destructive in either case. I hope they have found a way for it to not adversely alter anything. However, I agree with your premise that it may be better to be slightly too loud than not loud enough. That’s why I included the phrase
Ideally, I think it would make sense to come in near their loudness target (i.e. 14 LUFS in some cases) so that the least is done to your song/mix either way. It would certainly be helpful to know more about how they actually achieve their loudness normalization though.
EDIT: I got curious and found this, it is over 2 years old, so I don’t know if it is still the standard. But there’s more to it than just LUFS according to this. You have to consider the True Peak level and the dynamic range as well. And yes in some cases limiting could be applied which might cause some distortion (especially very dynamic music it says).
Here’s another thing I found that may help clarify things, using Spotify as an example.
Will Spotify play my track at the level it’s mastered?
Not always. This is because Spotify applies Loudness Normalization to your tracks as they’re played to listeners.
Mastering tips for Spotify
Target the loudness level of your master at -14 dB integrated LUFS and keep it below -1 dB TP (True Peak) max. This is best for the lossy formats we use (Ogg/Vorbis and AAC) and will ensure no extra distortion is introduced in the transcoding process.
If your master is louder than -14 dB integrated LUFS, make sure it stays below -2 dB TP (True Peak) max to avoid extra distortion. This is because louder tracks are more susceptible to extra distortion in the transcoding process.
Dan, are you able to control any of this in your online mastering service? Do they give you choices for mastering to different streaming platforms, and do they give you final specs like this?
No, you have that right, Mike. Even loudness wars crusaders like Ian Sheppard recommend a loudness “sweet spot” above the average LUFS targets that the various streaming services apply, which range from -16LUFS to -13LUFS. That said, if you are planning to put your songs on streaming platforms, it is still worth being a bit judicious with loudness processing, even if you can get it sounding really good & loud… here is the reason…
There is a website called “Loudness Penalty” which allows you to upload your mix and see how much it will be turned down on the various streaming platforms: https://www.loudnesspenalty.com/
I ran @danmanisa Dan’s various mixes through it and here were the results:
The first mix:
As you can see, the final mix was the one that was turned down the least when streaming. To simulate the effect of attenuation on playback, I took just the chorus section of Dan’s 3 files, attenuated them each by the amount shown for their respective Spotify playback loudness levels, and ran them “back to back” twice to enable a (fairly seamless) comparison.
So the following goes: (0 secs) Mix 1, (13secs) Mix 2, (25secs) Mix 3, (38secs) Mix 1, (50secs) Mix 2, (1:03) Mix 3…
Interesting. I wonder if some sites cater for this. For example, as a massive fan of Bandcamp, they ask people to upload the best quality files so that folks have options of what to download. I wonder if they have extended this to cater for streaming from their site in regards to what you are saying.
That is a great comparison. The differences are definitely more subtle when level matched!
I ran my own sort of loudness test too. There is another online site by YouLean to check your loudness:
I ran the song I’m working on now through both with the following results. I’ll just call the two the “mix” and the “master”. I pushed the mix to hit at about -14 LUFS and did some minor EQing.
The mix (-20 LUFS):
The “master” (-14 LUFS):
So to my point. Based on this, it doesn’t look like YouTube or Tidal will increase the volume of the quieter mix. However, a louder one will be turned down. So if you make it loud and proud, and get it sounding like you like, then it seems turning it down will just make it quieter. But if you get turned up, you run the risk of additional and unwanted processing and/or limiting to the mix you’ve worked so hard on.
PS. It would be nice to see SoundCloud and BandCamp on the Loudness Penalty Analyzer. Those are the two I use most.
You guys are way into this, so there isnt much to add, from me in passing. Compared to what CRS just posted - this one sounds a touch clearer to me… that I just did
I agree the Master3 version is still a touch beaten up for my taste and the song also sounds better, and slightly more dynamic, when less loud
danmanisa,
Thank you for the review! Now I’m listening to what I think is your latest mix (the bottom of the original post): I listened to that mix more than thrice. This reminds me a bit of Stone Temple Pilots and Led Zep. I like some parts better than others, though the best parts are awesome! Mix is very good, though I think the intro high hats (or cymbals) are too loud. If it were me, I would make a version of the song that is roughly a minute shorter, though I’m not going to give a detailed second by second list of what I think are the best parts; I think that would just interfere with your artistic vision and sound a bit negative. OK, I liked this song enough to listen to the second to the last mix: it is very good, but I like the “slightly watered down version” the best. I downloaded it (thank you), and I’m really picky with even free music. Really cool song. I can tell you spent a lot of time on this. What state or country are you from?
Thanks Aaron!
From Australia - A town called Bendigo where I grew up but lived in Melbourne for 20 years before returning “home” a few years ago.
It’s funny what you say about the length. I experimented with culling the final riff, but it didn’t end well, felt like it kind of stopped. Then I got some friend’s feedback as to if I should do anything extra in that section and all said “no way” and that they loved the heaviness and aggression of it.
Also interesting what you say about the cymbals. I’ve deliberately taken a certain direction with this project as stated above. This is both a sonic and song performance/writing direction. If you check out the reference mix above of Silver Devil, you’ll notice the constant cymbal playing - that’s what I was after. perhaps I do have them too loud though…
Glad you like it though. The full 5 song EP should hopefully be done by late July…fingers crossed. I’ll be spruiking it here… put on bandcamp and whatever else I can be bothered getting it to.
In regards to how long, I’ve been working on these 5 songs for a year and half I think. Having a set goal for style, delivery and sound has streamlined the process immensely. I am also releasing this under a project moniker which I will continue to do similar stuff under. That stops the felling of needing to worry if I do stuff completely different to this.
danmanisa,
Thank you for replying. My headphones emphasize the high & low end a bit, and seem to de-emphasize the mid-frequencies. I think it is most important to mix it to sound good for yourself.
Excellent song, dude! I’ve listened to all the versions, even @vtr’s, and they are all pretty good mixes. However, I agree the first was my least favorite. I am such an ignoramus as to technicalities, but maybe it is too compressed. My favorite was the first of the edits, I liked the “remember” chant better in this one, vocals were a hair clearer, too, in my ears. The second edit may pass the loudness test better, and thank you everyone for all this discourse at this level, so it might technically be a better mix, but I still liked the overall feel of the first edit a hair more. As @Stan_Halen pointed out, it might just be I liked it more just because it was louder. I think Vaughan’s mix was strong and on the loud side also, maybe why it generally appealed more.
I’m excited about the 5 song project, even though you think this might be the most enjoyable track. This one has a lot of melodic elements, even when you get a little fancy on the arpeggios intertwining throughout. You injected a lot of tasty nuggets that all feel apropos for the action. Sure, the song intends to be stoner rock, a genre believe it or not I was not familiar with, at least not by that label, but I would say this is fairly easy to listen to with the synths and strings softening it up a bit, maybe making it positioned more at the mainstream end of the spectrum. So maybe the hardest core purists, whoever they are, may prefer it otherwise, but I really can’t imagine them not really liking it.
Your vocals are spot on, too, and you do a bang up job with vocoder harmonizations. I understand your point of keeping your musical ideas within the scope of your skills. Especially on serious projects such as this that take time, have taken a lot of time, the temptation to try to go beyond your comfort zone is great because you are going to try to go right up to the edge.
But to reiterate the mix question, I would be thrilled to achieve the original mix you posted. And I am glassy-eyed reading about cutting this frequency or that to improve the clarity, etc etc. If you had a mixing “contest” here it would be informative as to what can be done and how, and if we can discern the difference going from great to near perfect.
Lastly, the lyrics are thought provoking, the opening line poking fun at how songs usually sound like something else, even though it might evolve into its ownness as it progresses. I think your dark inspiration is not obvious in the actual words, and that makes it more universally palatable. Maybe in the context of the 5 songs it makes more specific story sense.
Thanks Steban!
Thanks heaps for the detailed comment.
Wow, thanks. I’ve found it all a strange process this one. Unfortunately, it is as it has always been, baby steps and lots of practice. BUT!!! Around 7 years ago I made a decision to do half an hour of “something” to improve my music a day. Listening to a podcast, mixing, making music, critiquing songs on forums like this, reading an article etc… Somehow I was able to maintain that EVERY day (for about 360 days a year) for three years!!!
Then I got burnt out and had to leave music alone for many months. But, I learned a lot, especially developing more of an ear (but that’s still got a ways to go!).
But then we moved town, changed job and lifestyle and I found for a couple of years I had almost no output in music outside of maybe two or three songs from my band. Yet, in the last 18 months, I feel my mixing is now at my best.
I’ve often thought about why and I have come to this conclusion. The three year intensive routine helped me develop my ear, and learn a lot about mixing. I’ve likely forgotten much of it and that that I have forgotten was probably superfluous and more for professional, career mixers. I think that I have retained the techniques, tricks and strategies that I need to get a decent mix most times and a good plug in set that I know how to use and am happy with.
Thanks mate! Lyrics in most (but not all) of my songs are often deliberately purposeful but not obvious. I am personally proud of the opening stanza of this song as it pretty well captures the situation of things (musically and story wise) from several points of view.
Please allow me to explain.
The opening lines
“Hey, this sounds familiar,
I feel like we might have heard this one before,
It’s pain but it shouldn’t kill ya,
but you might wake up feeling a little sore”
Musically, the opening lines are a tongue in cheek reference to myself in that I am trying to do something very different to what I’ve done in the past (Musically and process wise) but it always seems to sound like what I’ve done before.
But its main purpose was the crux of the story/song. The song is about a long time friend (who I had not seen or spoken to for a long time) who took her own life about a year and a half ago. I’ve experienced suicides before and it was the same old story again. Loads of questions and mixed emotions.
The stanza is directed to me AND to the person involved. The lines about pain is directed to her, trying to angrily tell her (and knowing full well depression does not work this way) that your thoughts should not be enough to end your life, but also a message to myself that I’ll be ok but the dreams and memories, questions and feelings will haunt for some time.
That’s a lot to read into those lines, and I know that no-one else will ever read that into it, even when knowing the context of the song. But I like that people can take ownership of words themselves too and generate their own meaning.
Thanks again for having a listen and taking the time to comment.
oh wow yes I “remember” this one. It takes the cake for the worlds longest mix done but I am sure there are many other contenders for that award here, including myself
That song is simply jaw dropping heart stopping and pounding awesome.
The production is sheer genius! Love the cascading bagpipes (could be synthesized trumpets) and how they are used , love the orchestral injections, synth repeaters and use of clever syncopations in parts (got a chilling dubstep feel in certain sections) and the next moment you feel at the mercy of a tribal dance club dj … It is pieced together to perfection and love the vibe.
This piece has got some sharp fangs! Well done @danmanisa
Somehow I never commented on this before @danmanisa but I think this is really well done. I’m not too much into heavy stuff anymore but this is very creative and well put together. I especially like how you integrate synths into the arrangement. I’ll get to your EP when I have time, thanks for sharing!
I’m liking the song “Alan” too. I wish the vocoder had been used a little more judiciously, but a really creative and unusual song - and also kind of sad. It fits with Omen very well…
I’m almost absolutely sure I had commented on Like An Omen before but I can’t find my comments in this thread. I remember really liking the song. Maybe I commented on the video you made for the song? I don’t know how I would have missed this long thread. WTH !
Anyway, I’ve been meaning to spend some time listening to your new batch of songs that you just released and I want to revisit Like An Omen and the other songs from that project too.
Thanks @miked! Thansk for giving this one a little love. The five songs on the GIGGONS project never really gelled the way I wanted them to and to me they sound like 5 individuals rather than a cohesive collection (IMO) but I still am happy with each on their own.
Thanks @FluteCafe! It’s a tough sell, the combination I was going for, and many ways to lose a listener. Longer songs, large instrumental sections, heavy riffs, vocoder… one of these could easily put someone off. But I was conscious of all of these things and I am happy with how the sounds work generally speaking.
Definitely orchestral synths and VIs. No bagpipes were harmed in the making of these songs!
Thanks @ingolee. I’d be honoured and flattered if you picked it up at any stage!
Interesting. That was the first song written and recorded, in the can about 2 or more YEARS before the others. I love it because the lyrics are a poem of a good friend of mine. It was my first real attempt at usign vocoder and I think it shows.
Thanks again for the wonderfully kind words everyone. I very much appreciate it.
danmanisa,
I remember “Like An Omen”: I still think it is great. I downloaded it earlier & scheduled to eventually be burned on a CD (yes, I still use CD’s in my car). “Alan”: kind of a bizarre mix of Stone Temple Pilots/Led Zep and electronic vocals. Drums sound nice & big. Nice guitar riffs & tone. Also nice Cashmere-like orchestral stuff. Very good song!
I remember really liking the song. Maybe I commented on the video you made for the song? I don’t know how I would have missed this long thread. WTH !