This is one of 6 songs that I demoed last spring (2020). I’ve contemplated putting it up on BTR since then, but I figured I’d post it once I had completed it…BUT, I’ve been preoccupied with so many other of my original songs that I just haven’t gotten back to completing this one. I have a few little additions that I want to add to this song but before I make any changes I want to hear your take on this.
I’d appreciate any feedback and opinions about all aspects of this recording, song, performance, mix, etc., whether it’s positive, neutral or negative. If you hear things that are weak or in any way struggling, I want to know the truth. I really need to find the weaknesses in all aspects of my music.
You’re now free to BASH this without reservation. Don’t tread gently!!
This is a great tune, something to be proud of. Whatever you have on the vocals are awesome. Most songs, the song is great and the vocals need work. This is like the vocals shine above the song somehow. The harmonies are fantastic. The only thing I can possibly think that would enhance this would be some kind of key or mild synth pad behind either the chorus or the verses. And if the bass could have more magic to it, maybe more verb, or something to push it in the back a little more. I am listening again and maybe just bring the bass down a little? It might be the bass is overpowering the song. Because I want to also say bring the vocals up a tad, but I think the bass is just a little too loud. I am listening to this through small 5 inch monitors and the bass is just a little more above then anything else. It is drowning out the rhythm electric, the acoustic is much brighter so it shines through the bass. Brilliant piece of work here, you really nailed it.
I think I pushed the bass volume up because I liked the bass patterns more than the guitar riffs. When I mixed this I remember trying to get the bass to slice through the wall of guitars better and I may have ended up resorting to simply EQing and boosting the bass volume a bit too aggressively.
I wrote this song on acoustic guitar…, if I remember correctly.
So when I recorded it, I laid down the acoustic and some clean, straight strumming electric guitars with the basic drum rhythm, then I created the bass lines/ patterns. Next, I created the overdriven guitar riffs. I intentionally created space in the overdriven guitar patterns so that the bass lines would not get lost in a huge wall of overdriven guitars and the backing clean guitars/ acoustic guitar. I may have over-emphasized the bass too much, though I’m not sure. Hopefully I’ll get a few more opinions regarding that.
That’s something I hadn’t considered. I’m often a little hesitant to add keys or synths to songs that I envision as “rock” songs, for fear of making them sound too soft or light, but I think your idea might be interesting to try.
The mix, production and performance in general sounds really excellent. I’m not hearing anything out of place in the mix. It translates really well to all the systems I have heard it on.
I have one point which is not a criticism per se, because the song works as is. This is just a suggestion that I feel would make it work better: Once the song gets going, the amount of instrumental elements going on seems to stay pretty much static. I think the arc of the song would be more dynamic and involving if you really pulled out some parts for the verses and then built things back up again for the choruses…
This can be pretty hard to do when you have worked hard on the performances to get them just right, but if you listen to big budget productions, this is definitely something that becomes very apparent as intrinsic to the impact of the arrangement.
For example - you have a great baseline. Have you thought about muting everything except for the bass, drums, acoustic guitar and vocals for the first verse, right after the intro solo finishes?.. and then, you could bring back the distorted power chord riffs (really loud to replace the vocal) for that short break in the first verse (after “freaks”). Then maybe for the rest of the verse, instead of the distorted guitars playing full power chords, just play that partial “Sunshine of your Love” riff with only single muted notes on the guitar… and maybe only one guitar off to one side for the first part, to be joined by another later… I’m sure you get the idea… build it from there…
At present, there is so much great stuff going on in the music, but it all pretty much runs from beginning to end. Think about that saying “You never know what you had until it’s gone.” It is exactly the same with music - You get your audience to appreciate each part much better if you take them away sometimes and bring them back later.
This is great stuff @Wicked, I think a lot of people will like it. I know you said it’s not complete but we have to talk about it as is.
First off, I’m a bass fan so I’ll vote for leaving the bass up but I’m sure not everyone will agree so there’s that, it’s your call obviously.
Andrew is exactly right about the arrangement being static and he made some good suggestions for fixing that. Adding some keyboard stuff would work too but that’s usually mid heavy so it might be hard to fit in. You are a great lead player though, and that would work and be easier to fit in so that’s what I would vote for.
I think this is what has been nagging at me all these months. I feel as if it’s primarily the bass and vocals that are creating the shifting of gears when one part transitions into another. The guitars do a bit also, but not as much as they could. I agree that it can work decently as it stands but that incorporating some dynamic shifts would help drive the song even better.
Originally I had only bass, drums, acoustic guitar, with clean electric guitar doubling what the acoustic is playing. I waited a few months to add the electric overdriven guitar parts because I thought the song sounded really good without them, but in the end I knew I wanted to add the excitement of “rock guitars” to the mix. So, I like your idea of taking out some of the heavier guitars in parts of the verse, or palm muting some parts so that there’s more dynamics between the verse, pre-chorus and chorus. I also really like the idea of using just one guitar panned to the side in certain spots. I’ll give that a try. My only small fear is that the power and excitement will drop off too much when the lead vocal first comes in after the intro solo, BUT, I remember how strong the song sounded without any overdriven guitars and I have some confidence that I won’t lose too much power/ excitement. This arrangement observation and suggestion from you is an excellent one!
Absolutely. It’s an intelligent way to keep the listener engaged. Even if there’s only some subtle changes in the arrangement it can make the song and sections of the song much more impactful.
Thanks for your comments and suggestions, Andrew! @ColdRoomStudio
Really appreciate it!
Glad you mentioned that Ingo! I tend to agree with you about that. I can see where @WeGotLost is coming from but I find myself favouring the loud bass in this song. I’m hoping to get a few more opinions about that. So far we got 1 in favour and 1 against. Andrew @ColdRoomStudio didn’t seem bothered by the bass volume so I’m assuming that he found it fairly acceptable also.
Yes, he made some very good observations and useful suggestions.
I’m undecided as to if I want to try adding some keys/ synths. On one hand it might be a nice arrangement choice to add some key/synth touches during the verse, and then on the other hand I find this song has a lot of pop elements in the vocals and feel of the song. I don’t want to make the song too poppy and light sounding. But of course if keys/synths added another cool element without detracting from the “rock” feel, it could be a great idea! My bias for guitar oriented music and harder sounding stuff could be affecting my judgment here.
Thanks!
Part of me was wondering if the intro solo was too loud, but I do tend to like loud lead breaks like that. Glad you like that!
I still have to add another solo or some guitar licks in the second verse or near the end of the song, though I’m not sure this song is calling for a long solo.
Thanks for listening and your comments @ingolee!
I appreciate it !
You know, the other day, when @Lophophora posted “Squash Anthem”? That was a big reminder of just how useful and important arrangement choices have on a song. In the same way that his thread demonstrates, I want to try an experiment with a simple riff some day, to see if I can make something really good from something so bland and mediocre. It’s a great exercise in Arranging!
He turned that crappy, little, redundant riff into something much bigger and greater. His opening post, with the original MP3 juxtaposed to his modified/ rearranged MP3 could be used as a teaching tool in classrooms for music producers, arrangers, songwriters and musicians. Basically a before and after demonstration. Anyone who hasn’t seen that thread should take a look and listen to the before and after versions.
Thanks for the praise @Wicked! I’ve just posted the first mix I’m sending to the client, with some more modifications and the vocals. I actually think the arrangement may be a little too dense because mixing was not easy, there are many things going on and I had a hard time getting the vocals to cut through.
There is no shortage of inspiration to draw from this forum: @ColdRoomStudio and @FluteCafe are masters at arranging, just to name those I know best.
Thanks for listening and your comments, Paul @feaker
I totally know what you mean. There’s always a temptation to keep adding things to our song productions and to try to improve them. There’s always a chance that making changes can hurt the song but in this digital age we have the luxury of getting our original mix back without too much trouble.
I can totally see that. Maybe even late 70’s style.
I’m listening to your song right now. The first thing that comes to my mind is that the drums sound a bit weird, like a little mid-rangy maybe? Not sure what it is. Then what hits me is the strong 70s vibe, both in the songwriting and the general sound. And when the vocals start, wow I love that: you really have a great voice and you use it well. These harmonies are killer. The bass is a little loud IMO. It also sound a little weak on the low end but it contributes to the whole vintage feel so that might be a good thing.
I think the song could use more variation between the verses and the chorus. It feels a little “static” right now, if that makes sense. The drums also contribute to this, they mostly follow the same pattern from start to finish and I didn’t hear many fills or changes. That song doesn’t need elaborate drums but a few changes from verse to chorus, and a few simple fills here and there go a long way.
The acoustic guitar has a very busy part with lots of strumming, and overall the arrangement feels quite dense all the way even though there aren’t that many instruments. So I think I would try to ease up on the strumming and possibly loose some of the electric rhythm guitars during the quieter parts, to add more excitement and changes to the song, rather than add some more things.
That’s just my take on it. But going for a continuous, dense arrangement might be what you were after and a valid artistic choice too.
edit: I just read the full thread after posting this, which I hadn’t done previously. Interesting to see how most comments concur, especially Andrew’s comments on the arrangement. So there must be some truth to that I guess.
I stand by my opinion on the bass being a bit too loud though
I think the points that have been made about the static mix and density of the instrument arrangements is very useful. At some time in the future I’ll do a remix, keeping in mind the feedback that you and others have shared on this thread.
I really like the idea of taking out some of the guitars in parts of the verse and your point about the acoustic guitar strumming throughout the song being a bit too much, is something that I have thought about also.
Good to know that. I might try reducing the bass volume and then EQing certain frequencies so that it can still cut through the mix in the way that I like it to. I can see how it’s fairly dominant as it is now.
Ah, that’s a really good point !
What you said is exactly correct. I’ve been wanting to overhaul the drum arrangement for a long time. You’re right, a few changes from verse to chorus and other spots would accentuate those transitions more. I’ll give the drums a closer listen to see if I can hear the mid-rangey frequency that you hear. I’m wondering if the drums are being slightly buried in the wall of instruments that I have going on. I’m just thinking out loud. But, yes, I will definitely have a good listen to those drums to see what I can do improve the sound and arrangement.
Thank you for taking the time to listen and share your observations, @Lophophora. I really appreciate it !
Listening on my PC speakers and have not read comments so I apologise if I repeat (or even worse, contradict!) previous responses.
The highlight to me is the vocal treatment (and performance!). Really well delivered and super consistent without sounding squashed. The harmonies sound great too and the vocals are the real focal point but sit nicely in the song. I am picking up the odd vocal transient poking through before the compressor hits (SSsss on "So Help Me @ around 1:28 and again on "Some people say). It actually happens quite regularly and at first I thought it was minor, but it was enough to pull me out of the mix a few times (all on essess but not ON ALL essess - hope that makes sense).
I think the song moves along well and I had no qualms in listening to this a few times. Everything sounds great balance wise and clear. Anything I suggest there would be purely subjective. Sonically, I had no real issue with anything and thought it all sounded good for the genre, although I did find the snare to be a little weak overall. But when pushed, I couldn’t find why that is. I think I either want a touch more reverb or tail on it to give it a sense of more power and space, and/or a little more high end crack maybe? Dunno, it just lacks the crack slap I’d expect in a song like this (without having the arena reverb snare or gated snare), but at the same time, it’s sitting fin in the mix and it’s not at all bad. In fact on the third listen, I couldn’t figure out why it threw me in the first place.
I love the various types of guitar and differing strumming patterns used, and you’ve balanced the furious constant strum really well so that it doesn’t overwhelm or fatigue the mix.
Gonna read the other comments now.
That’s what I said but @WeGotLost said it first so I guess I can’t claim that!
I disagree, but I’m a bass player, so…
Yeah, I think that’s smart. The bass line is dynamic and has stops in it, much more so than the guitars. I like this decision.
Maybe that’s what I’m picking up on the snare. By no means a bad thing, just a taste thing.
Interesting. I hear what those who made similar comments are saying. I personally loved the different incarnations of strumming, but perhaps pulling some even just for short sections to help push and pull would make a big difference. The best thing is, you can simply mute some guitars for parts of sections and if it sounds great, then leave it. If not, unmute and away we go. Easy one to test and see!
Hey Dan @danmanisa , glad you liked the song. Thanks for taking the time to listen and comment!
Ah, I’m usually very cautious with my Sss’s during the actual performance. What I do is, I turn away from the mic slightly when I hit those sss’s and consciously try to minimize their vocalizations instead of treating them with a de esser in post production. I do that because I’m not very comfortable or good at de essing. I seem to remember letting some of the sss slide in this song because I liked the feel of the vocals while I was recording them. I may have done that because I was viewing this as a demo, but it’s been so long since I recorded the lead vocals for this, that I can’t remember what my reasoning was.
I have thought that there is a spot or a few where my consonants hit a bit too hard, and a few sss that are a bit too much for my liking. I found that analogue recording is much more forgiving than digital recording for those hard hitting consonants. I assume it’s the natural compression and saturation that you get with analogue and/ or tape. Maybe some outboard compression could help while doing digital recording but I’m just plugged straight in to the preamp on my Scarlett interface. In fact, I don’t think I treated the vocals with any EQ or compression (I’ll have to check to find out). The only effect on the vocals is a delay. I tend to be very sparing with effects and plugins on all of my instruments.
I think I’ve always had a minor grievance with the drums in this song. Like you said, they’re not bad but they could probably use something to make them a bit bigger and I would prefer the snare to smack/ snap a bit more. Also, maybe a bit more ambience could lift them up a bit.
The comments are really split on this. Seems about a 50 - 50 split.
Yeah, I can see both sides of the argument with this one too. Like you said. It should be a fairly easy thing to test.
Thanks again for your comments, Dan! Much appreciated.
I still haven’t decided on a name for this song.
Maybe I need to review all the lyrics to find an interesting catch phrase, or maybe I’ll have to create the title from scratch if I can’t find a good working title from the lyrics.
I take varying approaches depending on the project I am working on. Obviously, the most common thing is to take the catchiest, most significant part from the chorus so that folks can quickly identify the song by name.
With my Alien Lard song, I am deliberately taking a more abstract approach and selecting lines from the song that are not the most prominent and often not in the chorus. The whole project is designed to be slightly unnerving and unconventional (The name of the Ep is “Ugly Music for Ugly People… Or at the very least, for those who are aware that they are not conventionally beautiful.”) I’ve deliberately used titles that are longer than normal also, contrasting with a single word title too.
I reckon you either have to take the perspective of the listener (to make it easier for them) or try and capture the song in the title in context of the project and have the listener as secondary.
On the other hand, I’d argue that there are many out there who couldn’t name a song to save themselves unless it was a classic or played on the radio excessively!
I didn’t help, did I?
I was thinking today that it really all depends on who your audience is. If it is just a song for you to listen to, then you go with what you like obviously. But if you want a certain music base to like it, you have to ask what are they looking for? If they want bass, add bass. If they want usually want to hear all the instruments about the same volume, then there it is, the way to go with it.
It’s a tricky one and makes me think of that clip that was posted here recently regarding the “unbalanced mix”. I’d argue more so that if the part (in this case the bass) is helping drive and push the song along, then keep it louder. If it’s pulling people out of the mix or making the song feel weaker due to its volume, pull it down. We may find that we pull it down and it still drives it just as much and everything else sounds bigger for it, or it may just then sound sterile and samey/flat. Hard to know until you try I guess, but you are likely too close to the mix now to really tell.
I guess as long as it is not pulling people out of the mix (and I don’t believe anyone said it was a song killer) then you’re not doing it wrong.
Yeah, I usually try to make it so the listener can easily remember and recall the names of my songs but about 50% of the time I’m not satisfied with the song titles I make. I view this particular song as quite commercial sounding, so I’m trying to think of a title that is easy to remember. I might have to create a title that doesn’t come directly from the lyrics of the song.
I’ve been that guy who couldn’t name a song to save themselves, at times in the past.
Just off the top of my head I can think of a few songs that probably took me a long time to really remember their names/ titles, because the name of the song was nowhere to be found in the lyrics or chorus.
Black Dog - Zeppelin
The Last Resort - The Eagles
Bohemian Rhapsody - Queen (I think that song took a long time to identify it with it’s title)
Epic - Faith No More
Compare those to
Whole Lotta Love - Zeppelin
Hotel California - The Eagles
Fat Bottom Girls or We Are The Champions -Queen
Mid Life Crisis - Faith No More
The second set of songs are much easier to catch onto and recall when you’ve only heard them a handful of times or so.
You helped. The feedback you and others give is always useful!
