Will 96k be the new standard?

Me too. :slightly_smiling_face:

Well, as I pointed out in Post #3, there does seem to be a trend toward “high end” lossless music. Whether it becomes a significant part of the market remains to be seen. Those sites that are offering the specialty music files look to be mastered at 96k or 192k depending on the site and maybe even the individual artist. So someone is already doing this.

Perhaps we have two issues here: 1) whether the industry wants/needs the higher resolution from a production standpoint, and 2) whether the consumer market is willing to purchase products produced in that way. As with many things, the market tends to drive the choices, which don’t always make sense nor are they in the highest good.

Look at sugary breakfast cereals. Everyone knows you’re better off and save some cash with a simple bowl of oatmeal, hearty stuff. But those sugary breakfast cereals sell like gangbusters, even when we’re warned about the dangers of sugar - especially to kids who consume these Frankenstein imposters for real food, jacking up their nervous systems and glucose levels, and ruining their teeth.

Same reason someone climbed Mount Everest … because they can. :wink: And this is perhaps exactly my point; will 96k become the new standard simply because it can? As technology continues to push the envelope, many people may see no reason not to. I’m not suggesting it makes sense. But many things people choose to do don’t make sense (like sugary breakfast cereals). And if the market gets “sold” on high resolution being superior and they will buy it, then the market has spoken and capitalism has won the day.

Agreed. It would probably take a new generation to pick up on the new format and start using it as their standard for that to really happen. More likely is that some people will upgrade their 20% ‘favorites’ that consume 80% of their listening time (Pareto’s Law) to the new format.

When I realized I had several albums I had purchased over decades on vinyl, 8-track tape, cassette tape, CD, and MP3 download I was indignant. I don’t see any trading going on. The big record companies would never do it, and I can’t imagine anyone else would, but you never know. If there was enough cash in the high end downloads they might consider it as an incentive, but how do you trade a digital resource? If you turn in a copy of a file, you can still have a keeper file. I think the whole thing would be a gimmick and not particularly meaningful.

Just to revisit Post #3, here is what one retailer has to say about their process:
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http://www.hdtracks.com/about-us

We’re looking to ensure all files sold on the site are true to the format they are listed as on the site. All 24bit is tested to have true 24 ACTIVE bits so 16 bit upsamples can be identified. We also test to make sure the freq extends to 1/2 the sampling frequency nyquist in order to identify they are not coming from lower resolution recordings (96khz will extend to 48khz nyquist).

For example, 96/24 albums are recorded, mixed, mastered all in 96/24 or above. Whenever any of these stages is lower than the encoded format we include descriptions on the album page to preserve the mastered quality as intended.

We also include any of the hi-res transfer, remixing, remastering information and source material used (original multi-tracks, eq’d master or copy) that can be obtained for ‘re-issue’ titles.

I see a good bit of older music on there that has surely been recorded/remastered at lower resolutions. I don’t see where they mention any of those details that were stated above:
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http://www.hdtracks.com/mack-the-knife-497527
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And I’m not familiar with the DSD spec …

Available in Audiophile 192kHz/24bit, 96kHz/24bit, DSD 5.6MHz & DSD 2.8MHz

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Is that a thing? I think I’m an outlier. I’ve got an assload of music and while I will say I go on streaks occasionally I generally don’t listen to the same band two days in a row and usually intake about an album a day. Sometimes in the summer I listen to a disproportionate amount of Kiss though. Their albums are only about 30 minutes to begin with.

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I think so. But it would be interesting to know how peoples music listening habits play out. :slightly_smiling_face: I’d guess that more of the average music listeners listen to a limited collection of their favorites most of the time, but perhaps the “shuffle” generation has done away with that. And with streaming, there may be much less of the radio heyday programming rotation where you got beat over the head with the current “hits” multiple times per day.

You want me to report my listening habits to you daily? Maybe start a thread where we can report. Just to start it off, I listened to Killers by Iron Maiden today.

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Stan, I think someone climbs Mt Everest or runs a marathon for a sense of personal accomplishment. All someone proves when they record at 192 is they bought a converter. You could say that someone buys a Bentley because they get a enjoy driving one. I don’t know that anyone enjoys recording at 192 lol. Some people care if you drive a Bentley. Some people are impressed by a Bentley. I don’t think anyone cares if your converter clocks up to 384khz. Nor do I think it impresses people if you own a 384 clock.

That’s why I’m truly stumped.

There is one exception. I can hear the difference between foley footsteps or a firearms shot at 192 vs 48, when transposed down, warped, or time stretched to more than 4x the original length. When you start warping audio to that extreme, resolution matters. But the times you actually do that are so ridiculously slim. And the sound designer is going to shoot at 192 and downsample and dither anyway, because most film and video game stuff is 48k. Furthermore, that technique is going out of style. People are finding other more effective and more efficient ways to synthesize to simulate a bullet at 1/4 speed. Even if you show a bullet shooting out of a gun a 1/10th speed (slow motion), you still sample replace the sound of a normal bullet anyway. Half speed at the most. I found I have to reduce to at least 1/4 to notice any algorhymic benefit to higher sample rate.

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No, thank you. :slightly_smiling_face: I’m sure they’re fascinating, but I’m just trying to keep up with this thread about 96k on a daily basis.

Eeegggghhh! [denial buzzer] C’mon man, that’s the Tony Robbins answer. Besides, do you know how many people have died on Mt Everest seeking personal accomplishment? I don’t know that death qualifies as a personal accomplishment, unless you do it very well. :crazy_face: No, the reason people climb Mt Everest is because it’s standing there in all its glory going “Nya nya nya nya nyah! You caaan’t climb meeee!” That’s why people do it. It pisses them off. “I’ll show you!” says the world renowned explorer. “I’ll do it because I can!” Now, since those explorers accomplished that feat and showed it could be done, you get tons of schluppy yuppies chasing “personal accomplishment”, but don’t be fooled; they’re doing it for the same reason. Not “personal accomplishment”. They want to beat the mountain into submission, because they can. They want that badge of honor to parade around like some kind of hero. Personal accomplishment? End all wars and wipe out hunger and starvation. Done. Great job. :star_struck:
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That’s amazing. Doesn’t warped or time stretched audio also result in artifacts at those extremes? How do you know you’re hearing true SFX differences and not artifact differences?

Realize I’m both looking at what all this means, if there is benefit to making a change in standards … and I’m also playing Devil’s Advocate as to “why does it even matter”? Does hearing something in teensy tiny increments of detail change the world, make you a better person, make you happier, smarter, or more enlightened? Does I Love Lucy need to be presented in 96k HD remastered splendor, or would you rather see it in black and white with pops and clicks for the authentic experience? What does it all mean? Why do it?

OK, so here’s the framework for an answer, but you’ll have to draw your own conclusion and post it. :grin: A guy named Simon Sinek developed something he called the Golden Circle. It’s actually a dot at the center with concentric circles. In the middle is “Why”, next ring is “How”, last ring is “What”. He gets paid big bucks to do presentations of this to Fortune 500 companies under the guise of “leadership”. Someone actually hacked his chain and suggested there needs to be another at the very center; “Who”. It does make some sense. So it would be Who, Why, How, What. You can start at the center or at the outside ring. For example, What are we talking about? Changing the specs for audio to 96k. How would we accomplish that? Get interfaces that handle the specs and computer hardware robust enough to manage the workload on a consistent basis, and spend the extra time involved in bouncing/rendering files, copying, backing up, internet transfers, etc. Why would we change this standard? Well, that’s exactly what we’re trying to answer here and now. Why does it matter? So if you then decide, in this backwards goal-setting exercise, to ask Who - Who will benefit? Does it sound better? Who will buy it? Does it bring in more revenues? Who makes the rules? :wink:

You’re sure they’re interesting? Is it the username, the general behavior, or the inordinate amount of obscure metal I’ve been posting lately?

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That’s not what he said. He said he can tell the difference betwen the sample rates when warped - precisely because of the artifacts.

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Why does it have to be in concentric circles? Why not just ask the questions? When I was at college we were always told ‘ask all the double Us’ so I don’t think it’s anything new or original.

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When you start time warping stuff, all the conventional rules of sample rate don’t apply. If you pitch shift something down, there will be a huge difference between a high sample rate and a low sample rate. In sound design, I can definitely see the need for high sample rate .

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d. All of the above. :wink:

You mean a MINDWARP? HA! I TOLD YOU BOZ! WARP IS BACK IN THE PICTURE! I HAVE A REASON FOR EVERYTHING! I HAVE PRECOGNITIVE ABILITIES! ALL WORSHIP AND TREMBLE AT THE PRESENCE OF CLOWNPENIS.FART!

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OK so after some thought and research I have come up with some actual genuine reasons for recording and mastering at 96kHz

  1. 96kHz requires less aliasing, which some would say means a better quality sound.
  2. Lower latency - half the latency of 48kHz to be precise. (Of course you also need the hardware to cope).
  3. Greater sound quality when slowing down. You can slow it down to half speed and quality remains the same.
  4. According to Dan Lavery each element in the chain of microphone-AD-DA-speakers applies filters at 20kHz, each potentially cutting 3db at 20kHz, therefore applying a total cut of 12db at 20kHz. This means that a 60kHz sample rate is optimal since it would render the effects of the AD-DA as negligible, but since we don’t have that option, 88.2 or 96 is the next best.
    http://www.lavryengineering.com/pdfs/lavry-white-paper-the_optimal_sample_rate_for_quality_audio.pdf
  5. Many plugins work better at 96kHz

FYI 44.1kHz would be optimal due to Nyquist (as I have said all along) if it wasn’t for the level reduction at 20kHz. Otherwise, not only is a faster sample rate not necessary, it has the potential for making stuff sound worse, because the faster the rate, the more errors are introduced.

Sigh. Looks like I’m at least going to have to try it.

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HA! Now we’re getting somewhere!

AJ, I know you’re the right man for the job. Those slippery samples can’t get by with any nonsense with you in charge. :muscle:

Boz, you are correct of course. The number one reason in my books is it sounds so much more realistic recording at higher rates. I’ve been around since the days of tape. The biggest complaints about the digital conversion at 16bit was that the sound is bad. Because of brick wall limiting at 20k and 20hz there are no harmonics above and below this range. By increasing the sample rate and bit rate the frequency range increases and it sounds better. That’s the reason right there for changing the standard, it sounds better. I record at 96k/32bit because it sounds better. I know it is dither ed down to 16 bit but my goal is to provide the client with the highest fidelity product. Higher sample and bit rates do that.

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But how does it “sound” better if the previously limited frequencies are above and/or below human hearing? I don’t mean for that to sound argumentative or snarky. I’m genuinely curious :slight_smile:

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I can’t really think of many styles of recording where realistic is the goal. Possibly orchestral stuff. But if we wanted realistic, we’d be much better off using binaural microphones instead of the current practices.

Now, whether 96k sounds better is up for debate (a debate that I most definitely won’t participate in), but my opinion on the matter, for what it’s worth, is that any sonic benefits that may or may not exist only do so with the recording engineer in mind, and doesn’t really factor in what the end user wants/needs.

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I think your entire genre of live broadcast does. If you see a President or a talkshow host behind a podium mic, those guys want to capture what exactly what went into that mic and not do anything to it unless they have to. When you do have to, you use the most transparent plugins you can get your hands on. Different for studio broadcasting…Howard Stern for instance…heavy heavy low end…same for some AM radio talkshows.

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Bryan, my (limited) understanding is that by capturing higher frequency ranges you get a richer palette of overtones that may have been truncated at a lower sample rate. While the Nyquist Theorem accounts for audible frequencies to the human ear, that doesn’t necessarily mean that higher overtones and higher frequencies have no impact on the sound (at lower frequencies). Whether we can actually hear the difference is debatable, hence so much conjecture around this issue.

As DaveP says, if brickwall limiting is truncating harmonics, or if you do hi-pass/low-pass on all your tracks or your master, you are limiting the available overtones/harmonics. And dithering and downsampling may likely wipe out any benefits of recording at a higher sample rate IMO. While you can record at the higher sample rates (as DaveP says) to get the highest fidelity product, to be “safe rather than sorry”, where I’m seeing a potential advantage for all this is those lossless file formats like FLAC where the sample rate is retained. See Post #3 about retailers offering these. If you are just recording and doing minimal processing to achieve a mastered recording, and retaining the original sample and bit rates, then I think it might make a difference that someone could hear or appreciate.

Another one might be traditional/ethnic - especially acoustic - music. With some of those musical styles slipping away in the modern world, recording “archive” performances while excellent musicians of those styles are still alive could be important; to accurately represent the sound for posterity. In that case, I think you’d want to preserve them in those lossless (i.e. FLAC) formats with original sample rate and bit rate intact.

Perhaps. While I can see high-end broadcasting setting high standards, I think live broadcast differs from recorded “art”. For live broadcast, just being clear and intelligible is sometimes enough. The web standards for podcasts, videos and webinars are frequently horrible and I’m constantly unglued by the crap that passes for acceptable. Now live broadcasts of musical performances should definitely meet those higher standards, at least in some cases. Live broadcasts of orchestral performances or other acoustic styles in particular, maybe all music. And (while I hate to say it) those vocal judging contest shows, as people are voting on the sound of singers who at times can be quite talented. And they’re being judged by both a panel and the audience “at home”, so it would make sense for everybody to be hearing the same thing. Besides, they have the sponsors and the budget. :slightly_smiling_face:

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