Songwriting process

Recording, Mixing and Producing
#41

Thank you :grin:

#42

A song doesn’t have to have melody, chords, or lyrics to be copyrighted. Drum cadences for marching bands are copyrighted on the sequences of rhythms alone. Atonal classical instrumental works don’t have a melody, chord progression, or lyrics either, but they still receive copyright protection. They don’t even have key and time signatures. (Youtube the works of Weber, Berg, Schoenberg.)

Jump is in the minority of popular works where the melody in the accompaniment is distinct enough to stand as its own composition apart from the melody and lyrics. The is because the upper voice in the keyboard line would easily constitute and ‘unique and original’ combination of intervals and rhythms.

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I don’t believe the word ‘jump’ as an 8th note on the second beat of a measure is copyrightable. And really, the tonality of the note is also debatable. Is more of a spoken word than a sung one.

If you were to attempt to copyright the bass guitar line to “with or without you”, you wouldn’t stand a chance. On the contrary, the baseline to “Billie Jean” would stand a chance in court, especially if used at the same tempo, along with a similar drumbeat, and played on the same instrument.

#43

Ooh err. I seem to recall a long and uneasy thread about copyright. Watch this space.

#44

The melody and lyrics of Jump is copyrighted, and that particular note and lyric is part of it, therefore it is copyrighted when it forms part of that melody. That’s what I meant, because that was the point under discussion - i.e. that even if the melody is simple, it’s still the part of the song that is copyrighted.

I agree that when a riff/lick/instrumental has enough melody, it can be copyrighted, but then again, that only underlines the fact that it is the melody that is important - whether it’s vocal or instrumental. In any case, the main point I was trying to make is that chord sequences cannot be copyrighted, and in most cases, it’s the vocal melody and lyrics that are protected, which underlines the importance and value of the melody in any given song, as opposed to the accompanying instrumentation.

In respect to the discussion, it’s moot point anyway, because - as you say - Jump is an exception to the norm. Most popular songs have an instrumental accompaniment, a vocal melody, and lyrics. The point I am trying to make, is that a songwriting process that focuses on the accompaniment rather than the melody itself is possibly flawed, and that may well be the reason why the OP is struggling with the process.

Indeed, but since the OP doesn’t look like he’s going to venture into the world of atonality anytime soon, it’s a moot point.

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#45

That makes sense.

As does this :smiley:

#46

Well I missed out on all the fun with the time difference. Just to grab back on our earlier conversation:

I tend to think that you should be able to play a good hook with no more than an acoustic guitar or piano, and it would still be a good hook. I know there’s more to it sometimes, but in this case I believe you should be able to play it on an acoustic and still recognise the hook.

And even if you weren’t thinking of the Beatles, what do you think of my association with the guitar outro in “She’s so heavy” (I wasn’t referring to the vocals)? Am I completely off the mark on that one?

#47

its only something like a distant cousin. descending arpeggiated chords with distortion

on mine the chorus chords r something like em, em/d#, C, Am, small riff to D

the verse is something like em, em/d#, am, adim/d#

of course those are the chords as I played them but the guitar is tuned down a whole step so its really in Dm etc

#48

the process itself isnt inherently flawed. As we have mentioned, many bands do it this way. The band writes some music and hands it off to the singer who goes away and comes back with lyrics and melodies.

I think there are several things hanging me up and I am sure they are somewhat common.

  1. ive played guitar for almost 30 years. Ive sang for 18 months. We can all do the math there

  2. So surely I have come up with hundreds of nice riffs and chords…but am a total novice at coming up with vocal melodies

  3. The vocal melodies I DO come up with dont sound like anything special so they probably get rejected

  4. So why dont they sound special?? why dont they sound “pro”??

a) production. Plain and simple. A scratch vocal on a scratch demo is simply uninspiring to say the least. May be nothing “wrong” with the melody but so what…it gets rejected because it doesnt sound pro.

b) singing quality of the scratch vocal. Yes, I can sing, but its not 100% autopilot. I do a lot of singing and its all free and easy when im just goofing off. When I hit the record button its like we go into another world. Juts like hitting balls at the golf range seems easy but then when you tee it up with 3 other guys all of a sudden you realize it aint on autopilot anymore

So probably, as someone mentioned, I just need to keep repeating the process 100s of more times even though its doesnt feel that rewarding at this moment.

#49

again, I see your point and agree with it to a degree. But its never that open and shut

Kashmir
Smoke on the Water
Crazy Train
Purple Haze
etc

#50

haha. i was going to send a song to a guy for him to check out and it just happened to fit this comment. And I agree, either a simple melody over shifting chords or vice versa can be really nice

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#51

Reminds me of one of my favorites…

I suppose you could plonk chords for this tune quite easily on your guitar?
But it’s all made magnificent by textures and a bass that is sometimes "out of synch"
Absolutely wonderful stuff.

S

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#52

I would be careful with idea that production is a major component of the song. The danger here is that you can end up relying on the production to “make” it a good song. The only thing a good production will do is …make it sound like a good production. It can definitely help emphasis the strength of your song, but it won’t make your song itself any better. When you’re writing I think it’s best to focus on the song, not the production or the performance. Those things usually come later once you’ve created your song. They’re just the icing on the cake, not the foundation.

Don’t worry about your vocals being special. If you’re looking for perfection you’ll never get anywhere. You can lay down a vocal melody and step away from the song for a few days or a few weeks and if you come back to it after awhile and it still doesn’t sound right you can always create another vocal line. You might even want to record multiple tracks with different vocal ideas. Time will tell you which vocal idea is the best, or if they all suck. Either way, you’ll learn and improve. Everyone writes at least a few shitty songs, usually more than a few (we all just like to believe our own songs are somehow special). It’s healthy to write crap…, because eventually you find that one golden nugget in the shit pile. Just do it !

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#53

the point on production being…we compare our unproduced, unmixed scratch vocals to, say, Steely Dan or Abba. No wonder they dont sound so great lol

point 2. i wasnt talking about my vocals per se as far as the quality of the singing. I was talking specifically about the melody itself. We could take some pro melody (all 2 or 3 notes of it lol) and make some quickie scratch recording of it and all of a sudden we might think it sucks

But regarding the specific singing quality itself. Yes, its a big factor for me since im trying to sing rock. Crooning wont cut it lol

Someone above mentioned me screaming…which I find quite odd since I have never screamed a lyric in my life lol. If anyting my voice is waaaaayyyyy clean for rock. I havent tried to develop any distortion or grit yet as ive mainly been trying to build a decent base of vocal strength

#54

Case in point, from my point of view.

This verse instantly grabs you. Why? Because of some intricate winding melody?? nope, its dang near monotone. THE PRODUCTION AND VOCAL VIBE grabs you instantly.

for all i know I could have written this 5 times myself already but just recorded over it because at this point I am probably incapable of getting that pro vocal production sound

#55

But that’s not songwriting, it’s recording/mixing/producing. They are separate disciplines.

Are you saying that you will never be happy with your songwriting because you are not capable of producing commercial quality recordings?

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#56

I am saying its definitely playing a part. At least thats my understanding of it. In other words ideas may be being rejected that might be ok ideas…but one has to have some sort of imagination to hear them as pro ideas

#57

its not that I havent gotten ok vocal quality on some of my demos etc, I have. But thats after doubling/compression etc. Whereas some stuff ive done with a bare vocal just sounds so blah that its uninspiring

Also, part of it is as I said, my singing isnt a 100% known quantity to me at this point lol. I dont have my range and different vocal attributes perfectly mapped out for instance to know WHERE to write the song (key and melody notes) to set it up to fall into a good range for me

for instance I like my voice on this one, but not all songs will be in that exact key or range. This is mostly singing around e4-b4 so probably the key of E should be good for me

but like I said, this is doubled etc. IIRC, I was struggling with the vox on this lol. People have ragged me lately because I double everything and of course when u do that u get accused of trying to hide a weak voice

those types of comments always come from people who dont record or produce. If I knew pro techniques for making ONE voice sound huge, i wouldnt be doubling stuff lol

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#58

Ok, all valid issues and worthy of discussion - but mostly not songwriting issues - except maybe the key, but that’s really a technicality rather than any kind of major contribution to the creative process.

Have you tried writing a song using just an acoustic guitar (i.e., not using your DAW)?

#59

Well its not that I havent written songs. I have lol. I just want them all to be great (i.e. perfect)

The thing about acoustic is sort of related to some other things I have said earlier. Acoustic would generally lend itself to purely diatonic sing-songy stuff. nothing wrong with that per se.

for instance I love Cheap Trick and they have their fair share of straight up 3 chord stuff. for instance the song “voices”. I totally love the song but its soooo plain that I dont think i could write it. I would never think it was good enough to bother with

Seems too simple lol. I tend to want to complicate it more

and somehow I have a hang up with acoustic and drums. Just from a practical standpoint my recording process starts with drums, generally I try to make them as big and rock sounding as I can. So its hard to sort of imagine that with acoustic

I do recall that most of the BonJovi and WhiteLion stuff was written on acoustic though…at least the ideas

Im going to try to focus on hooks more going forward. I laid down some drums and wrote some lyrics this morning and I am now going to try to flesh them out into some sort of rock hooks. I was trying to hear the ideas in my head as i wrote the lyrics.

But getting from this stage onto Hd is like a million miles away. To me, the minute I lay something down and it aint perfect, im done

The hooks, omg

#60

That’s a fairly common attitude among songwriters - especially inexperienced ones. The sooner you can ditch it, the sooner your songwriting will improve in my opinion. Somewhere along the line you’ll have to accept that it’s probably not going to happen, otherwise you’ll never get down to the business of writing good quality songs.

You’ve cited multiple examples of great songs by top artists that have simple melodies, yet somehow you seem to think it’s unacceptable for you to write a simple melody. If you can ditch this mindset too, you’ll be well on the way to some good songs.

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