@DeRebel well done for calmly laying down some real-world experience. The manager of my old band has worked as a prison guard and it definitely doesn’t sound easy. Hats off to you!
Consider the prison studio vs a community center. You mentioned ‘recovering money’ (return on investment) and selling music on the market (sales, streaming, licensing revenue). First, I wouldn’t assume ‘criminal records’ is a functioning label. I don’t think the argument for prison media arts programs should be based on ROI. The reasoning isn’t persuasive, mainly because if its about ROI, there are more lucrative ways to achieve this. If we’re talking about rehabilitation, think the best arguments stem from what kind of programming gives the best benefit to the community. Here’s an example.
This is a venue in my area. Patriot Hall. Sumter SC. They have concerts here. For years they ‘hired’ prisoners as stage hands and cleaners.
They were able to keep their costs extremely low, which benefited the community by providing a venue for cultural events at an unreasonably low prices.
When PA systems, lighting, and road cases needed to get moved, restless, bored, physically fit prisoners were be happy to volunteer for this. And very cooperative and disciplined on the job. The facility director told me he’s never once had a problem or ‘incident’. I called him a few minutes ago just to confirm that they still have not had one since we last spoke. They were paid a few dollars (by the jail, not by the venue). Inmates were assigned to clean the facility and hold normal hours from 8:30-3:30. The public was aware that inmate labor had been utilized for years. Though it raised questions, schools and colleges that rented the facility for events never publicly objected.
There was an administrative change over in the county that put an end to this a year ago, but Patriot hall said they would gladly accept help from inmates again if the conditions were the same.
My argument here is that this benefits to the community more than it entertains the prisoners while still allowing them to be involved in an arts related trade.
This is indeed a good innitiative. And we need more like those as well.
I don’t think this is a discussion about who gets what budget, cause that is being done by the people responsible for those issues. If you want to make a moral claim, you have to do it while comparing it with where this is located. You can’t compare a budget in one country with a budget on a whole different segment of government in a completely different part of the world. You have to make it with all the other segments of that country. Hence this is more an emotional discussion.
In that case I can understand questioning this. If you want to discuss whether it has its use or not, you have to be very speciffic and have a lot more data/knowledge about this. Which neither of us have about this particular situation.
This is nothing to do with a snowflake attitude. Bearing in mind the aforementioned rehabilitation ‘success’ rate, it’s reasonable to assume that the person will offend again, so his/her right to live next door to me doesn’t trump my right to live in safety.
As is your own post.
What if the improvement was only 0.1%? Would it all still be worth it in your opinion? It’s still an ‘improvement’, after all.
There must be a line below which the ‘success’ rate is clearly not good enough - certainly not good enough to say that the system works and is viable. For me, that line is not 10%. Fifty percent would be better, or at the very least 33%. But 10%? Does that make it all worth it? Does that justify the resource involved? Not for me it doesn’t.
Thanks man It realy isn’t. Because its one of the most ungrateful jobs I can think of, let alone have at least some experience in. Not that I’m looking for sympathie, but trying to explain personal experiences is already hard on its own, and trying to do it in a foreign language is even harder
I disagree. This is a discussion about budget. Because the person who drafts the budget is accountable to the people who pay taxes for said budget to exist. If I’m in either country, I’m one of those people.
Then it comes down to stewardship. Are we doing the best we can to take care of those taxpayer dollars? Are we making the best/smartest/wisest decisions with what we spend? In my opinion, buying a C24 and placing it in a maximum security prison is not.
Sure you can. Watch this:
Buying a C24, U87’s, an Argosy, Gibson Guitars, and building a prison studio in NORWAY is wasteful and would have been of greater benefit if given to an effective community program.
Buying a C24, U87’s, an Argosy, Gibson Guitars, and building a prison studio in THE UNITED STATES is wasteful and would have been of greater benefit if given to an effective community program.
Insert any country in that _ (blank) _ and the logic still applies. Swamp it. Same thing.
In the UNITED STATES: A Scarlet, MXL990, and a tablet with garageband is all a prisoner should get to record with (if they get anything at all)
In NORWAY: A Scarlet, MXL990, and a tablet with garageband is all a prisoner should get to record with (if they get anything at all)
Would you have any problem if a private individual purchased top of the line equipment for the inmates to record music ?
Pretty funny you’re using the exact same reasoning all the SJW’s use or have used, ever
If you are talking about changing behavioral paterns of individuals in these kind of situations, then I think 10% improvement for starters is a verry good start. An it all depends on the details.
For example: A lot of things we try to do here in Belgium and the succes of that, also depends for a large part (I would argue for the largest part) on the competence and the amount of personal available. Here we are always understaffed, and the bar for getting on to this job isn’t realy high. Plus because we are understaffed, we have trouble getting our vacations and stuff which brings the motivation of the personal down for quite an amount. This all contributes to a worse result of any project being executed by set personal.
These are thing not everyone knows because they have no direct experience with it. This also reflects back on what Jonathan says here:
This is not the only factor. Do you know the budget all the other instances get in Norway? Ofcourse it matters. I already agreed to your suggestion that for as far as we are informd about all this, it would indeed be more logical we would set them up with:
At least you acknowledge this
Children of criminal parents have a greater chance of becoming criminals themselves this study shows that children of criminals are twice as likely to exhibit criminal behaviour themselves
Would you also object to their children living next to you ?
That phone call I made earlier today got every bit of data I need. It proved that prisoners could benefit a fine arts endeavor with community cash going to the arts facility instead of the prison recording studio. Comparable dollar amount goes to a community arts center in stead of a jail arts center. Community benefits more.
I don’t need more specific data on what the gear is. I know exactly what the gear is in that picture. I can give you an extremely accurate register of what that stuff costs and what it is worth. You miss the point. The value of the gear and how the money was spent is the only thing that matters.
I don’t need to know the recidivism rate for the Sumter jail. That’s irrelevant. I don’t care about the recidivism rate in Norway. That’s also irrelevant.
The only data that is relevant is how much was spent, what the needs are, who it was given to, and the capacity in which it is used.
I’m sorry, the argument from recidivism is a complete red herring logic here. What in the world makes you think that if that same studio had shit low level consumer gear in it, that it would have any impact whatsoever recidivism rate??? Come on. You know how the recording gear world works. Do you honestly believe that those Neumann U87’s make a difference in the criminals repeat offenses? Are you honestly gonna challenge that on the basis of test group/control group statistics?
I think I figured out where you’re going with this. This is what’s called a propositional fallacy. I’m not required to know the budget of every prison facility recording studio in Norway, and I only need to show one instance to establish an exception.
Claim: Some DAWs do not support video game middleware.
I only need to show one of them doesn’t (Studio One). It doesn’t matter if I have surveyed every DAW on the market. Not necessary.
This is only in the short run. A community also benefits when more people get out of jail a better person then when they came in, then the other way around.
I wonder why you keep comming to that since I already agreed with you on that. twice btw.
I don’t know the whole story, I don’t have any inside in there finances. They have full time jobs in those prisons and have to pay for there luxeries as a resemblance of outside the prison. I don’t know if they have to pay or have any costs for themselves when they use the studio or if they get it all for free. I Don’t know, and I guess you don’t either, so…
Cause you are making a moral claim, saying its unfair to schools and community centers who don’t even get that. When you’re talking about the school and community centers, you are talking about those in your area. Do you know how well aquiped there schools are ? I don’t, thats all I’m saying. Maybe there school get 3x higher budgets for their arts calsses. Unless you put those next to eachother its no use discussing if it is fair or not. Are there better things to invest in then in those u87’s, I bet there are a lot. And who says none of the other things are being done already ? You’re looking at this in isolation, not in the whole context. Keep in mind that I agree that the way this is brought out is not realy raising much sympathy.
And how would they manage to do that?
I wonder if you would still have the same attitude if a previously-convicted rapist came to live next door to you and your wife. Or (if you have a family) a previously-convicted paedophile.
Add to that, being one of the people who heald him or her captive as a prison guard. This happens to collegues of mine regularly. I’d prefer he carried out his sentence in a belgian jail instead of an American jail if he was going to have to live next to me. I don’t know why that is ?
If you agree on that, then I’m confused what on what we’re discussing.
This is a conjunction fallacy. It assumes you must use high budget gear to reduce recidivism. The whats in question is the budget and recipient of the gear. If you could accomplish the same level of recidivism crap gear (since is the program that rehabilitates people, not the gear) then it follows that the dollar amount of the resources would be of greater benefit elsewhere.
Is that the part you agreed with? Or is it the reasoning you disagree with?
SJWs do not use reason, they simply attack - either verbally or physically - the person who is voicing an opposing view to their opinions.
I’ve expressed a view which comes a result of being presented with the facts of the matter. SJWs generally ignore facts.
I’m basically arguing, and have been from the start since I joind the discussion:
I never said that the quality of the gear has any influence on there rehabilitation progress. Depending ofcourse if that gear makes it possible to do more outsourced jobs. The only thing I argue about the speciffics about the gear, is that we don’t know who funded the gear. So its hard to make conclusion. Far all we know, and this would probably the best case scenario a large part of it was upgraded due to profits of the recordlabel. In my country a prisoner can’t run a bussines while in jail. I don’t know where the rcopyrights of there music is mainly going. Is it being used to fund the accomodations? I dunno.
Presented with A fact. then there is the way YOU interpret that, and then there is the FACT that the level of violance in American jails, wheter inmate on inmate, or inmate on staff, is much higher then those of european or scandinavian prisons. This is not due to America just having more agressive inmates, but due to the way we go about the whole detention process.
Yes, it would not change my mind.
A large majority of paedophile victims are assaulted by either a family member or close family friend.
In the USA all are required to be registered in a publicly accessible database and I have checked and there are 3 living within a few city blocks of my residence.
I do realize that recidivism rates among paedophiles is quite high because my brother spend 15 years counseling them in our state prison system and has regaled me with a lot of data.
We all do that. Yes, even you, so please don’t single me out as though I’m committing some sort of misdemeanour.
I made my point solely in response to your assertion that I was acting like an SJW. I’ve rebutted your assertion and now you have moved on to the level of violence in American jails. Where did that come from? When did anyone even mention violence in jails?