I don’t know the answer to this because I never check in mono but it occurred to me:
If you switch to mono, you’re bypassing the pan law algo, so doesn’t that result in a boost in level? If so, how many of you crazy mono-checking dudes compensate for that by dropping the level in order to get a genuine A/B check?
If you do drop the level, how do you determine by how much to drop it? I can only think of two ways:
Take an spl reading of both the stereo and mono mix from your mixing position and adjust accordingly.
Render both the stereo and mono versions of the mix and measure their loudness in LUFS, re-import both mixes into a new project and adjust accordingly.
Option 2 is better because it allows for proper A/B-ing. Option 1 means that you can’t truly A/B because you have to adjust the level every time you A or B.
No. A standard mono summing algorithm is (L + R) / 2.
If your levels are wildly different when you sum to mono, then you have some serious problems in your stereo mix. That’s exactly one of the things you are checking for when you listen in mono.
I’m not a huge fan of mixing in mono, mostly because everything sounds crappy in mono to me. But I guess that’s also the benefit of mixing in mono.
Yes, same here. I still can’t quite wrap my head around the concept. It starts off something like “well, if it sounds crap in mono, then…” But I always miss the last part because I’ve fallen asleep by then. I mean, it’s hard enough getting it to sound good in stereo without worrying about mono too.
Surely the original reason for checking if it sounds ok in mono was in case some poor souls who might buy your music could only listen in mono.
I know stereo is ubiquitous but there might still be some mono folks around.
I can’t control how/when/where people listen to my recordings. I only produce stereo recordings, which requires a stereo playback facility at the user’s end. If the end user listens in mono then they are using the recording for a purpose for which it was never intended.
It’s like suggesting that manufacturers of petrol-engined cars should make sure their engines can run on diesel as well as petrol, just in case the driver puts the wrong fuel in.
I don’t think it’s at all equivalent. Your job (or at least what most mixing engineers consider to be their job) is to provide an end product that sounds as good as possible wherever possible. If you don’t care what it sounds like in mono, and your customers don’t care what it sounds like in mono, then it’s perfectly valid to not bother checking it in mono.
But if your customers do care, then it is most definitely in your best interest to do so.
What gets hard about it though, is you as a mixer aren’t going to get direct feedback about how people play back your mixes. It’s not like the department store owner is going to say “hmm, the guitar on that song isn’t playing back correctly in the produce aisle. I better contact whoever did this mix and let them know.”
They’re going to say “Why does this radio station play music that sounds crappy,” and then switch to a different station (maybe). You’ll never hear about it. The band will never hear about it. The radio station will notice that when they play low budget mixes, people stop listening to their station. Then someone will start a thread somewhere about how stupid the current radio trend is, and it’s all because you didn’t check your mix in mono.
My job is to make as good a stereo recording as possible, unless the client says otherwise.
See above. They’d have to make a point of saying so beforehand. To date, that has never happened.
I doubt that very much. I think you’re making an assumption based on your own knowledge and perception, rather than on the standpoint of a shop manager. You think the discrepancies of a mono playback in a shop’s background music is really going to spur the shop owner to switch over? In an untreated, multi-speaker low spl environment, in the unlikely event of anyone actually noticing a discrepancy, they would then have to make the connection of attributing it to the recording itself, rather than their playback system and environment.
Isn’t there a tips n tricks aspect to this though?
I thought that switching to mono was (supposedly) a way of double checking levels, particularly bass levels?
Or more generally, the adage/cliché, if it sounds good in mono it will definitely sound good in stereo.
I realise I’m saying this without rhyme, reason nor logic but It’s only because I have none in this regard.
Any views on this?
Edit: sorry, only skimmed the thread. AJ & Boz have sort of addressed this
When I think of an A/B test, I think of quickly switching back and forth between two options to compare them. Why would you want to do that with stereo/mono? It’s not an either-or sort of thing.
I often mix in mono, especially when I’m working with EQ, because it makes it harder to get a good result. It’s feels great to finally turn that stereo back on and hear how clear things sound.
@bozmillar, I’m completely with you that the mixes must work in mono. But maybe not for the reason of them switching stations. The clients and managers themselves get pissy when they notice their material is outperformed by other mix engineers on mono broadcast platforms. And they do notice because the smart ones pay attention to where and how their material is being used.
Most PA rigs are mono. Theaters, churches, auditoriums, schools, restaurants, nightclubs, local fitness centers, hotel lobbies…the list goes on. For all of those, the mix needs to work in mono. Some radio stations won’t play junk if the sound quality isn’t up to par. This could be for a number of reasons, the stereo image being one possibility…some will refuse to air it if the 2 bus limiter doesn’t meet the certain criteria set by the federal government. Other times I’ve seen stations attempt to remaster it and change it themselves.
[quote=“Jonathan, post:10, topic:1550”]
And they do notice because the smart ones pay attention to where and how their material is being used.
[/quote]LOL. No they don’t. At least not to the extent that they compare public mono renditions of their recordings.
Most PA rigs are stereo. That’s why most PA amps are stereo, and why most PA mixers have pan pots/faders. I run a PA hire business, my PA is stereo. Ever tried telling a keyboard player that you’re going to take a mono DI out from his keyboard?
Theatres are usually stereo as far as I know, but I’ll stand corrected on that. Churches (the ones with PA rigs) are stereo. Not sure what you mean by schools, but if there’s a PA, you can be reasonably certain it’s stereo.
[quote=“Jonathan, post:10, topic:1550”]
… restaurants, nightclubs, local fitness centers, hotel lobbies.
[/quote]But people aren’t listening for recreational purposes in these joints, in fact they’re not listening at all, they’re just hearing. Music is just sonic wallpaper in these environments. Put it this way, no-one is going to get upset about a slight difference in mono, nobody’s even listening.
[quote=“Jonathan, post:10, topic:1550”]
some will refuse to air it if the 2 bus limiter doesn’t meet the certain criteria set by the federal government.
[/quote]The CALM act governs loudness, not the stereo image.
That is a bizarre concept. Why would anyone want to make it harder for themselves? It’s difficult enough as it is.
So before this degenerates into yet another “you must check in mono” pointless debate, let me ask this:
In real life, in either your own experience, or in the experience of people you know, how many times have you known this to be an issue?
I’ll go first: Never. I’ve never once come across it personally and I certainly don’t know of anyone who had a negative experience due to a mono rendition of a recording.
I can’t tell if you are trying to bait people on their words or if you are actually trying to understand. This isn’t really a hard concept, and it’s been talked about a million times in a million places. When you eq in mono, it makes it easier to hear the effects the EQ is having on your mix.
If it’s a method of mixing that doesn’t work for you, cool. It’s not like you are required to do it. But it seems a little bit strange to argue against it just because you don’t understand it.
Yes, its true they do not go around comparing mono mixes. But at the same time, they’ll pay very close attention if they notice their own clients work being broadcast somewhere, and most are smart and savvy enough to I.D. something when its blatantly wrong.
Maybe where you are. Pro rigs over here aren’t.
It doesn’t matter if you tell him or not. One way or another it ends up in mono if the rig is in mono. If you think he’ll pitch a fit over it, let him hook both channels up. It won’t matter.
Absolutely not. I know this space better than anyone on this forum. Line arrays and flying rigs in churches will never be run in stereo. The reason is that it takes twice the resources to rig it. Some may have a crossover network that can be re-arranged to accommodate a stereo rider, but its rare.
Completely not true. The speaker arrays spread all over the ceilings in a gyms or cafeterias certainly are not. Nor are the speakers in school football stadiums, basketball, or hockey arenas.
c’mon. How the hell are you going to make a stereo image in a 360 degree spread, feed out evenly to the stands in a basketball arena?
This is where I went to school. I assure you, its mono.
Thats cool. It’s not like there’s a wrong way to mix. I do see how its easier to make something sound good in stereo, because listening to a wide mix is naturally more interesting. But easier to hide problems I guess
I have noticed it a few times in public places (department store, etc), because I knew the song very well and was surprised when it didn’t sound right. The big one was Whole Lotta Love and it has happened several times with that song, always a public store. During the breakdown and guitar solo, half the parts are missing on the guitar solo at least. There’s lots of panning of those solo guitar parts and effects in the song, and something just doesn’t work right on a mono system.
I wasn’t trying to be a dick about it…I did some audio tech classes at the University of Michigan before switching to a piano major. I was a dumb college kid back then, and they certainly didn’t let me touch any of the controls in our sports arenas, but I did ask them how they figured out where to put the speakers. (I assumed it was stereo too, thats when I learned it wasn’t). They blare music tracks over the PA for the scantily clad cheerleaders to dance to, and occasionally have bands play at half-time shows on small stages off to the side.
I’m sure they’ve updated the system from when I was there, but if I recall correctly, they were running racks and racks of Crown MacroTech amps over a Klark speaker management network. The music tech program at U of M had a lot of computer science and physics. I was more interested in the music end. I wanted to run a DAW, not write code for it.
Here’s a picture of a little high school gym in Michigan where I grew up…I took a look at it and was thinking about how you’d set this in stereo? Would you go stereo from left to right on the rows facing the bleachers? But the other bleachers are facing you, so your left is their right? So reverse it? Then go mono in the row of speakers down the middle of the gym?? I dunno.
Here’s the auditorium in the school I grew up in. Fowlerville Michigan is a less-than-3000 population farm town. (Yup. I grew up on a farm). So our school accommodations aren’t as fancy as some, but they get us by. I played my first piano recital on this stage
I’m pretty sure this one has one mono cluster in the middle. Unless it got updated, but knowing my home town, that’s pretty doubtful. I dunno. I can see why some schools would put a stereo PA system in a place like this…might just be a preference on a lot of the designers in my area of the US. Who knows.
I wasn’t trying to be a dick about it…I did some audio tech classes at the University of Michigan before switching to a piano major. I was a dumb college kid back then, and they certainly didn’t let me touch any of the controls in our sports arenas, but I did ask them how they figured out where to put the speakers. (I assumed it was stereo too, thats when I learned it wasn’t). They blare music tracks over the PA for the scantily clad cheerleaders to dance to, and occasionally have bands play at half-time shows on small stages off to the side.
