Stephen Massey’s views are pretty much spot on. But to contradict him just a little bit, there are playback devices that have issues near full scale. But like he said, people listening on those systems don’t care.
-0.3 dB is an arbitrary value. It’s small enough to not make much difference in your output level, but still make some difference in your distortion level (even if “some difference” is too miniscule to bother with).
I’m pretty sure you are aware by now that most conventions don’t come about through rigorous scientific reasoning. They come about because someone influential had a good experience once and spread the word, and others followed. And that’s fine. It’s not like it has a detrimental effect on anything so long as it isn’t put into law.
It’s generally pretty easy to tell within a sentence or two if someone is debating based on fact or opinion. If someone’s base in the debate is based off of “trust me, I know,” then pushing more isn’t going to squeeze information out of the debate. I find it’s easier to just raise your eyebrows and look in a different direction, if the real reason you are debating is to find factual answers. Once a debate gets into the territory of defending pride, there isn’t much to be gained.
That is my suspicion, but many people insist that -.0.3db is defnitive, so I think it is reasonable to request some facts and figures in these cases.
Honestly, no, I wasn’t aware of that. I guess what you mean by ‘most’ is the siginificant factor here.[quote=“bozmillar, post:61, topic:1289”]
I find it’s easier to just raise your eyebrows and look in a different direction, if the real reason you are debating is to find factual answers.
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I know, I know, you are so right, and I am so weak in that respect. Very good point.
That is how the guys that are famous do it and it was how I was taught. The “step at a time” approach allows you to increase a little at a time so that you have full control. As you get louder and if you aren’t careful, DC offsets can come into play as well as possibly clipped samples.
I have a project somewhere that I did for another site where I took screen shot captures of the numbers each time I went through one of my mastering processes. There are 5 processes to my mastering procedure that I like to do strictly because they allow me to watch over the audio carefully as to not degrade anything. With each procedure, the numbers will alter slightly. Now, some guys do things all in one shot or in two shots. If that works…that’s fine. I never once said there was a right or wrong way. Do whatever works for you. But in my years of doing this, a few things have always given me the best results for audio.
I always record at -6dB. I’ve tried -10, -12, -15 like some people swear by…and I’ve gotten as close to 0dB without clipping as I could. For me, the best work I have ever done is by recording at -6. No other reason but a personal preference and great result every time.
Mastering out at -3dB was a Bo Katz suggestion. By working with him, as well as reading his book and getting to know him while he worked on my own album, I thought it was something worth listening to. No other reason…I’ve tried a few other ways…again, this was the best result for me.
-0.3 is actually just a safe place and many keep at this level due to what happens when you export an mp3. It will just about always show clipped samples if you export higher than -0.3 even if you don’t hear them. I’ve looked at some of the masters done by Katz and Ludwig…I see final numbers all over simply because they mastered for the music and the genre, not the meter.
I’ve seen -0.22, I’ve seen -.01, -.03, -.05…but the only time I see 0dB+ is when I convert an mp3 and analyze it. So it’s good you are doing it the way you are doing it. Artifacts can come into play to where it just degrades the audio. Artifacts like, little clicks, pops, and well…if you get told that you clip when you hit 0, do you really want to do that? We can hit +3 or higher with analog and it sounds great. But digital…give yourself some wiggle room. Stay where you are Midge. You will NEVER clip or pick up artifacts…unless your audio has some bad crossfades or other stuff that should have been handled before the mastering stage, you’ll always be in good shape even when exporting mp3’s.
So, having spent most of yesterday on this, I have discovered Limiter6, which is not only free, but also gets rid of ISPs.
Now I’m sure that many people will be interested in twiddling all the knobs and finding out what this beastie can do, but for the moment I have focused on the ISP limiter.
When you open upen up the VST, turn off the two units on the left (one click each) and turn on the ISP limiter on the far right to ‘precise’ (two clicks). The default setting of -0.2db has proved to be optimal in my initial testing.
I’ve gone from about 5k - 10k digital overs (some as high as 2db) to none. Boom!
I still think the process would work better if each peak was attenuated individually by a plugin rather than a blanket limiting process. If the industry continues to demand zero ISPs above 0db then there will surely always be a market for such a plugin. Boz
If it’s ‘safe’, it must be for reasons other than the fact that it’s at -0.3db, since ISPs are typically higher than 0.3db. In other words, mastering to -0.3db is not going to protect your recording from a 2db ISP.
Having said all of this, I’m fast coming to the conclusion that none of this actually matters in terms of what is actually coming out of the speakers. I mean, the Limiter6 ISP limiter is transprent in operation (to my ears), which is good of course, but if it’s transparent, that means there was nothing sonically wrong with the recording in the first place.
The problem with recording that high is that it can clip - especially with shouty vocalists. Also, in my experience -6db can be enough (because of the peaks) to distort some plugins. In the digital realm there is no need to record at high levels because there is virtually no noise floor.
edit: I didn’t mean my posts to be a direct reply to Danny, I hit the wrong reply button.
So here is Graham Cochrane’s view on reference tracks:
I’ve picked out some key points: Mixing in isolation is a bad idea.
“Should still I reference my mixes to other tracks that are already mastered? Isn’t that a problem?” The answer is no, its not a problem. Rather it’s the best thing you could do!
Mastered tracks are what actually make it out into the world and it’s what people listen to. Therefore these should be your benchmark, your standard.
…you’ll be able to listen to the EQ balance, the volume of kick drum to snare drum, to vocal, etc. You’ll really be able to compare apples to apples, your mix to theirs.
Wow. Well done @AJ113. That limiter sounds great.
And you’ve established that different people have different opinions. I’m sure Graham will be chuffed to bits to have your professional endorsement.
C’Mon, stop it now. You quoted me purposely because you’re confrontational and still want to fight with me. I promised to stay away, but you know what? Since no one has the balls to put you in your place and you want to stalk me on my every word, I’ll give you your wish. It will be a most pleasant experience to bury you in every aspect from here on out.
-6 will clip? How will -6 clip if it is your hottest point of your signal? Of course you will have to lower faders with the additional tracks you record as the master volume will get hotter but so what? Lower the faders if need be. Solved! -6 is a very nice signal. Strong but not overly strong. Plugs clip their own meters but have plenty of head room without physical, audible clipping. And -6 will not clip them. I.can’t believe what I’m reading here. (Boz, get in here and school this guy) Unless of course you use plugs that are not good quality.
Also, if you know anything about gain staging, you’d stop any post processing from getting out of hand because gain/trim staging allows you to control how much signal is flowing inside your DAW as well as your plugs.
But even there, plugs will show a clip on the meter if you are hot, but will not clip the signal unless you are way in the plus zone. I have been clipping plugins and my meters during playback for years. It’s a warning sign, not a clip. Read up on plugins and processing. Cakewalk SONAR has to be so high to actually hear a clipped signal, it’s nuts.
Did you know that -6 means -6 under 0!? Honest, it really does mean that! I know…funny right? But really…it’s true, it really is!
That means if you have a screaming singer, his shoutiest part should hit -6 dB as his highest point! That also means that your average signal may be -10 with a peak of -6. Also, if you compressed lightly going to disc, you’d never clip anything.
Some of us use light compression to condition the signal going to disc destructively because we are good like that and know how much to use without ruining the audio. We also use compression destructively because certain compressors can color the sound in a positive way. Like say, a Drawmer tube comp which I’ve used for years.
This also prevents any possible clip points. I would think someone in business as long as you would know stuff like this? In 83 I had a Tascam 388 which I still have to this day. I ran light compression even then as did everyone else I knew. It helped to condition the signal and helped with possible clipping…can you believe that?
A compressor can actually stop accidental peak clipping and can allow you to print a little hotter! Aw cmon, you knew that one, right? But of course…you have the answers for everything.
Reference material: You just had to push on with that. More confrontation I see. OK, so be it. I don’t agree with you or the person you quoted. You simply don’t get it. You really don’t. Reference mixes have nothing to do with your mixes! What I meant is, do not get so wrapped up with them that you try too hard to make your mix sound like someone else’s.
It is counter productive because the instruments are not the same! And I don’t care what famous person you use that feels that way. I don’t feel that way and that’s what matters.
I can name engineers off the top of my head that I think suck. They’re famous but not gospel. I never allow famous people to alter my direction when it comes to originality. What they may try to feed me in certain areas doesn’t matter, unless it makes sense in my mind and can be useful. I’m telling you to be original and create your own thing. This way you are not chasing your tail or anyone else’s.
Mixes are so subjective today, some really aren’t very good coming from notable sources. You have surely heard some mixes from super stars and asked yourself “what were they thinking” yes? I’m saying every mix is different. They all have their own personality. Create your own and be you. Screw reference mixes. You’ve been doing this for so long…make people benchmark you!
If I applied a mastering curve from Sixx Am to someone that didn’t have a song that had similar instruments and a similar sound and feel, the mastering curve will fail. I’ve done it when people have requested it. I can snap shot the mastering curve of any song you want and can apply it to anything. What’s the difference between doing that and doing it by ear? Right…not much…if you have good enough ears.
If I make a band that sounds like Tower of Power sound like Rascal Flatts because they like the sound of a particular song because it is their reference material of choice, the song will fail.
Don’t you understand that certain cymbals and high end transients bring about different frequencies and elements to adjust with your own high end when compared do someone else’s mastered song?
Darker cymbals in your mix will sound like ass if you use reference mix high end that may have had different cymbals, different snare crack, different vocal mics…it’s not a great way to do it. Be original and know how to achieve your own identity. Sure listen to reference material to get an idea, but people try too hard to cop them verbatim. They literally have an A/B chain set up. I just think in my experience, it’s pointless. I’ve not used a reference mix or compared to anything in about 10 years and I’m proud of that.
Don’t you understand that a reference may accentuate sub low frequencies that you may not have in your mix that you may not want? Do you not understand that a reference mix may have a boomy kick drum and your kick may be clicky like say, Metallica? Your drums are a major part of your song sound.
What if your reference material is old Megadeth but your actual sound is more like black veil brides? I can’t believe you can’t see what I’m talking about to be true.
Or…this is your ploy to get me to share information with you when you know I do not wish to converse with you? I get it…be confrontational with me so I fight back and give you knowledge. Hmm…nicely played after all. Applause
If you want to use reference material and if you want to record at whatever input you choose, DO IT!! But don’t sit here and argue with me about what I believe in. There is no right or wrong other then what works for an individual.
I actually find just about all your theories to be flawed and I sincerely feel that someone like you can poison and also ruin the experience of people that really want to learn. Your communication skills are horrible and you don’t know enough about communication and respect to help anyone. Maybe a language barrier? Or maybe this is you and you’re a smart-ass hiding behind a screen because no one can touch you. Yeah, that’s what I think. I’ve met your type several times.
It’s not that you aren’t knowledgeable, you just can’t convey your ideas without sounding like…well, a dick. I’m not calling you a dick, I’m saying you sometimes come off like one with your delivery and how you carry yourself. I’m sorry to say that, but there is no other way. You could be helpful here but you choose to ram stuff down people’s throats instead of sharing an opinion and leaving it at that. Your wording absolutely sucks at times and you not accepting another man’s opinion where you have to challenge all the time is beyond pathetic.
You’re like a bully on a school playground that should have his teeth kicked in. And yes sir, I’d be that man that would raise a size 9 to your grill and stand up to you because I really think you are a hindrance to this site as well as to its followers at times.
I’ve been standing up to people like you in person and on forums my whole life. Why should you ruin things for people with your bogus opinions while never accepting the opinions of others? I never gave a crap about your opinions but accepted them and said that numerous times. I tried to give you information and told you where I thought you were wrong and I was nice about it until you acted like a dick. You even noted it yourself. You call it “Curt” here in NJ we call it “Dick”. You didn’t like it when you were corrected or didn’t want to accept my opinion, so now you feel the need to constantly question me and challenge my every word.
I think you are so misled you don’t even realise it. And if people want to ignore me if they feel I’m out of line for stepping up to you, I’m OK with that. I figure there’s 4 people on this site that like what I have to offer. If they are my only audience, I’m perfectly fine with that. I’ve shared a boatload more information in my posts in this thread than you have your entire time here.
And guess what, I’ll not back down from you. I’ll fight you everyday if I have to until I’m asked to leave or you are. The proper solution is we ignore each other as to not upset Bryan or Paul or whoever else moderates. But we see how you listened to Paul and proceeded to post stuff when he said it was starting a fight. That shows the type of person you are by basically ignoring a mods request. I like those two guys enough to respect them not having to deal with this. But I’ll tell you what…you’ll see me everyday posting just so I can truly help the people you are misleading. They deserve that much. I’ll stamp you out one post at a time.
At this point, I’m going to suggest that this be taken to PM. Debates are cool and some good info can be weeded out of them, but when they turn into battles, let’s move them to pm and sort it out there. I’m closing this thread for now.
