That’s some producer stuff, Danny! I like your version better, and if were Philip, I would have loved it. This is like the Songland TV show. These songwriters go in with a song, which they perform themselves usually with marginal backing studio musicians. Then they go to a producer who invariably changes everything, almost all for the better, but the final demo may not even have the same words or melody or even title. They try to salvage some hook that was there as a rule.
Now the way I see it, most songwriters aren’t singers or guitarists, much less arrangers and producers. But they have the snippet ideas that may or may not translate into a radio friendly song. And that radio friendly song might be one of several potential formats, say rock, country, R&B, folk, whatever. I consider what you did here as perform an original song now co-written by you and him as I don’t think Philip and son sang or played at all on the new version.
And if they did sing or play, as happens a lot I suppose, anything at all, then I would consider them entitled to call the new version their song featuring you. Songwriters can be members of a band, if they write a lot of words or melodies, but not as a one off.
But also, your role as producer, Danny, might technically be to produce the best demo that the songwriter now can present to a popular signed artist to cover, and it will be that artist’s version that will be on the radio that everyone will identify with as the original.
I think there is a purpose for the producer who does it all and one who does not. Seriously, if you produced a Metallica CD you probably wouldn’t be redoing the music, just the rest- mixing, etc. Maybe some arranging. So it is a wide spectrum you do, custom to the client.
Sorry to go on in your thread, @feaker! So I think we have a lot more underproduced or better described high quality demo produced music music out there, it’s advantage is it is more artist driven with all sorts of desktop technology and often complemented by producers and studio musicians getting the songs out relatively fast. So @ingolee’s concern about preserving the artist’s original song idea is not an issue since it is the artist who is paying, so they should get what they pay for.
But I did enter 3 songs in The American Songwriters Contest this year, I believe it was. The deal was they would make a demo with professional Nashville studio musicians of your song if they accepted your song for I want to say $700, something like that. Not $50. And then they would promote your song among their contacts at big name acts. Blake Shelton was their poster boy. I didn’t pay because I thought the versions of the songs I submitted were good enough as they are to serve as the demo. And that might not be an out of line price, but I would have felt like I was relinquishing all artistic control in this intermediary step.
Hi Steban, thanks for that! Much appreciated. This guy is actually more of a rap guy, believe it or not. So when he came to me with this, I was a bit surprised. You should hear our rock/rap stuff. Hahaha, it’s VERY different.
You’re exactly right…sometimes, the producer gets a hold of an idea and totally changes it. In my situation with Philip, I just wasn’t hearing his version and just offered what I had heard in a VERY scaled down demo at first just to show him where I was going and what I was thinking. After he said he liked it and wasn’t interested in actually performing it, it sort of evolved a bit more because THEN, it was sort of like MY baby once he gave the go ahead. But normally, I don’t try to totally change things unless there’s something I’m feeling. I figure, if I don’t say something to an artist that has trusted in me, I do them a disservice. I’d rather have them say “no, I don’t think I’m feeling that” or “oh man, that’s perfect!”
I took part in a thread here where I showed a better example of before and after from an artist where things changed, but I didn’t have to rewrite anything. Check it out when you get a minute.
Totally agree there. Like I said though, I don’t normally change things this drastically for anyone. I just had that idea pop into my head and felt it wouldn’t hurt to pitch it. Heck man, quite a few people I get in here at times just have words and a melody, so I DO have to create from the ground up. That’s fun at times, but a lot of work because then I’m playing every instrument and writing the song for them. It’s cool to be on both sides though. It’s sort of like mastering. Sometimes I add a little polish to a song, other times, you have to really do some work on it especially if it has to be cohesive with other songs on the album. Producing is like that in many ways. Sometimes you go nuts, sometimes you polish, other times you rewrite the whole thing.
Well ultimately, I think it depends on what you sign on for as the producer. Normally when someone comes to me to do an entire album, we get together as the songs are being written or demo’d. This way I can be a part of the arrangement process as well as the melodic value, magical lyrics etc. Some people have words that are too wordy that just don’t phrase right. Sort of like the shred guitarist or the drummer that over plays and tries to get every beat/lick in there.
Other times, I just help enhance the ideas and experiment like I did in that thread link I posted to you. Sal was a great guy to work with and we just bonded like Elton John and Bernie Taupin with our work ethics and being on the same page. It’s like “what if we did this?” Oh wow, and what if we took that and did THIS to it?" And the next thing you know, we’re doing things we didn’t even expect. When you get in that position with someone, it’s an exhilarating experience that I can’t describe. It’s happened a few times with people and man, each time it happens, it makes you thank God for people like them that come into your world.
But yeah, sometimes you do the best demo you can, other times, it’s for keeps and makes it to the actual album. Other times, you may just lend a helping hand with a guitar sound, a delivery of a certain drum or bass guitar sound. There’s quite a pallet to work from.
Totally agree on all counts here too! I think certain bands need certain producers. For example, the old 80’s band Ratt, needed Beau Hill so bad, they couldn’t finish a good album without him. All the albums they did with him went platinum. They hated him. But, he kept them on schedule, he ran a tight ship, and he got things done so they weren’t over budget. Guys like Metallica…they just have this “thing” that needs to be left alone. I feel Bob Rock ruined them with St. Anger. It was just totally the wrong direction for them in MY opinion. When you do something a certain way, people expect it. They gravitate towards it because you sold them on what you do.
If you look at all the bands that have done this, it’s easy to see why they stayed successful. As soon as you try to reinvent the wheel, and try to do it using the same style you always use, you’re doomed. If you are going for a change, it has to be a big change in everything. Sort of like how Aerosmith went from being so classic rock to more of a classic rock with modern sounds and enormous hooks like Permanent Vacation. I dig old Smith, but the hooks in the newer stuff just totally won me over. Infectious and huge enough to land an Orca. But then again, when you have songwriters and producers, you have less of a chance at failing. All the bands that used guys like Mutt Lange, Desmond Child and had song writers other than themselves did pretty well too. So it all depends on the band and where you hope to end up really. At the end of the day, as long as you get the desired results and everyone is happy, you’re where you need to be.
