Reference track call out

Recording, Mixing and Producing
#21

yep.

Im going to post some tracks in Bash in a few minutes, come check them out. Im trying to sound like AIC or vanHalen and I got a ways to go lol.

#22

I was inspired by the 80s rap in general but i think it sounds similar to this with less reverb:

https://soundcloud.com/7-trumpeta/stash-shqiptar2-rap-hip-hop

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#23

I don’t use just one reference song pr one track. Nor do I necessarily maintain a correlation between styles of music. What I was trying to point out was that I observe very specific qualities of certain mixes. For instance, if I want to check the width of the vocal, or the verb on a snare, or the balance of the sub bass on an 808…I have many different tracks that relate to the QUALITIES. Not the style.

If your logic is along the lines of: I want to see the correlation between someones reference tracks and their finished material, then I think you’re going about this the wrong way. It just doesn’t work like that.

But its a good thing you’re bringing this up. I think reference tracks are an very important part of the process. Here’s another tid-bit that gave me some good ideas. Ideas I still use today.

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#24

I have utterly screwed myself with reference tracks in the past - it’s bad enough chasing your own tail, try chasing someone else’s! (Hehe…)

They are great for keeping your feet on the ground and giving yourself some common frames of reference. It took me quite a while to learn what they’re not good for; telling you how to EQ or otherwise process the individual parts of your mix. That’s a recipe for a hiding, and I had to learn the hard way that just because something worked for someone else’s mix, doesn’t mean I can mangle my own tracks to sound the same.

I’ve got a playlist of about 30 tracks I know quite well which I pull up every now and then to make sure I’m at least working within the ballpark of what might be socially acceptable from sound. :relieved: Each song serves a specific purpose, things like

  • An Audioslave track, to remind me how much attitude you can get out of over compressed/limited/ crunchy sounds.
  • A Kings of Leon track which is quite dense, dark and low-middy tonally to remind me not to make things too clear, thin and bright.
  • A Manic Street Preachers track which is quite bright, open and also uncompressed in the low end to remind me not to make things too dark, thick and dull.
  • A Deftones track to remind me what slamming low end and very aggressive walls of guitars feel like.
  • An Arcade fire track to remind me what open, natural and midrangey arrangements with sensitivity feel like

etc etc…

So it’s more about building a sonic map of norms in my head and as long as my mix sounds good in itself and falls somewhere in the really wide realm of actual commercial releases I’m referencing, I’m happy!

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#25

yeah, this could be a cool ref track to sort of show how to combine the old (blues/rock gtr) with the new (more modern percussion style)

#26

I use reference tracks tracks a couple of ways.

  1. I have a few songs that I listen to over and over to remember my system and how it sounds, I might reference these tracks during tracking just to make sure I’m not getting too far away from what I want. I’m generally listening to frequency response in individual elements and an overall frequency response. I have about 3-4 songs I use regularly. I use these songs when I setup doing live events too.

  2. Once I have a mix started or even during the tracking phase I start to get an idea of how I want this mix to sound. there is usually key elements that I’m hearing that point me to a song or band. (you know when you say this song reminds me of X). I’m never expecting it to be identical but it puts tones in perspective. I generally use a few songs to references based on tone choices with the mix I’m working on. I’m not trying to copy those tones but use how it works with the other instruments.

  3. Once I have what I believe close to a finished mix I will either use one of my references or maybe even another reference and make sure my instruments are balanced to one another properly (does this feel right?). A lot of times I will use this to master with or at least see where I am at when I start the loudness increase. Sometimes this tells me I’m not done with my mix…

  4. I occasionally use something completely different just to reset my ears from what I am hearing. so if I am mixing metal I may throw on some pop of some sort, just to get a sense of tonal differences and to make sure I’m not losing myself in the direction I’m heading.

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#27

While I totally get what you’re saying, what you’re talking about is basically mixing out of context. If you were to listen to soloed tracks of a big name mixing engineer, I think you’d be surprised at how (un?)pro they sound. There are some youtube videos that can give you a chance to hear some examples of HUGE songs with parts soloed. I’ll see what I can find for you.
Mixing in context is one of those major steps that takes you to that next level, but it can really take a long time to get used to it. I still struggle with that. It wasn’t until I heard some examples of finished tracks that were soloed. Guitars and bass in particular sounded pretty crappy soloed. Certainly not a tone I’d dare use live (although, maybe I should!). This would make a really good article (including audio examples). Hey @ColdRoomStudio, would you be open to providing some soloed examples like we’re talking about?

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#28

ive done my share of listening to isolated stuff…I love it lol. Of course the context is important, but huge powerful drums are huge powerful drums are huge powerful drums are…well u get the idea

I have ears enough to hear the difference between a peanut (my drums) and Alex VanHalens or Bonhams

in any case I am going to enter into some study of this very question (pro rock drum sounds)…which i am doing as we speak

its not ALWAYS out of context anyway, because often the dude does a short drum solo or a nice long fill where the whole band drops out. Boom, their is your drum sound right there

for instance a fave from my car cruising days:

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#29

Bryan is absolutely right on the money here. Mixing in context is so crucial. Solo’d drum tracks (or any other instrument for that matter) might sound awesome by themselves, and then when mixed might sound like complete crap. And the reverse can also be true. Sure, sometimes we solo tracks while adjusting their settings when we need to really hear what’s changing, but then we un-solo right away to get the mix back up and hear what it sounds like with the other instruments. In the end, it will be a mix, so that should be the final arbiter when making mix decisions.

I doubt very much anyone told you that it was “dumb” to post those at RR, that’s just not how we roll. You may have interpreted the comment that way, but I would be very surprised if it weren’t more along the lines of what Bryan said, namely that there really is not a whole lot to be gained by bashing a solo’d drum track.

All part of the journey…!

#30

Drums are definitely a study of their own. Sooooo much to learn about mixing drums. Personally, I think if you can dial in your drum mix and get your vocals sounding great, the rest fall into place quite easily. :thumbsup:

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#31

haha, lets not get it twisted, RR was still the internet. I did have issues with a particular member who was a regular and essentially I stopped posting. Same guy numerous times and i was told “oh, thats just him, dont let him bother you”

Life is too short for me to dig up old posts of people being idiotic lol

But lets not paint it like the internet will ever be free love and peace signs

#32

haha! that’s funny. I think I know who you mean. I’m pretty sure he hung up his headphones a while back (if I’m guessing correctly)

#33

I have seen his name mentioned as someone who hasnt come over here yet. no offense but im glad

#34

All of my songs start with drums. Thats my writing process. I program a song on drums: intro/verse/maybe prechorus/chorus/bridge/ etc

Then I lay down basic guitars. I literally have dozens and dozens of decent tracks written as far as the guitar riffs and tonalities and arrangment…but the drums might be weak and overall mix weak. So those tracks will probably fall by the wayside since I generally suck at going backwards to fix things (yes, I have many hangups lol)

Any improvement in my drum sound will make a HUGE improvement in my overall process

Again, as far as context, you get about 10 seconds of solo drums at the beginning of this album (except for the stupid drill) and it simply sounds fantastic before anything else even comes in

#35

I keep the Nirvana Nevermind album on standby and Black Keys El Camino (if I can ever pull off some of that Tchad Blake mojo, I’ll be pumped!). Other than that, I try to think about some similar (to what I’m mixing) material that I recall having a great sound.
Sometimes however, I’ll keep some tracks around that give me ideas to try. I may utilize an idea from a hip-hop tune on an alternative rock track. It’s all fair game :wink:

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#36

@Jon-Jon those drums sounds you are referring to Bonham and the intro from Van Halen have a lot of room mics in them. Its what I call great for the period but doesn’t have as much as it used to in modern rock. Programming drums I find it really hard to get a good room sound. I have superior drummer and never was really able to get that the same way as micing a kit in a room. My opinion is that drums are really the only instrument that really need a decent room to record them. That may be why that big drum sound is disappearing more and more (nobody can afford the studios anymore). There are other techniques you can employ like parallel compression on the drum bus to aid in that sound though. I see where you were going with the solod drums, but what we are trying to say is that I bet if you mixed these same Van Halen drums by themselves they probably wouldn’t have sounded like the version you hear now, and technically they aren’t solod and just that little bit of guitar can make a big difference. The more you start mixing the more you will understand relationships. when I solo an instrument its to pinpoint something I hear in the context of the mix and then go back and forth between the solod instrument and the mix. I know it sounds like you should be able to solo everything and when you put it together it should work but it rarely if ever happens. I also get what you are saying about any improvement would be better, but how do you know what to do until you hear it in the mix is the point I think everyone is trying to make. A solod snare might sound awesome by itself until you bring in something and its all wrong, now just imagine that with an entire drum kit.

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#37

Something I didn’t mention before… I like referencing mixes from the early '90s because they’ve not been smashed to death in the volume war.

Obviously genre dependent, but Soundgarden’s Superunknown is a great example of an album that’s got loads of dynamics left and only some very mild limiting. Tool’s Undertow and RATM’s self-titled debut are also great references. Post-Deadwing Porcupine Tree and Steven Wilson’s solo output is barely mastered at all.

Nice to hear what a good mix sounds like, sometimes if you’re referencing a cd master from the late '90s onwards it’s hard to tell what’s the result of the mix and what’s just a by-product of hard limiting/converter clipping.

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#38

What I have started doing is to just listen to music I know sounds “good” and then listen to my stuff. If I still enjoy my mix right after that then I am happy.

I believe it is a good idea to reference pro tracks, specially when working with the low end. They have proven worthy of radio time and appeal to a lot of people.

About the drum question. They can sound pro by themselves, but maybe do not blend with the rest of the instruments in a mix. Drum mixing, as any other instrument, shall begin with a purpose. How do you want them to sound in the mix? Bigger? Wider? Small? a lot of mid frequencies?

/Lukas

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#39

I understand that point…but whats the alternative?? if u start with a crappy drum sound, at what point does it magically get better?

to me, drums are the foundation…get them right and then everything else can adjust to them, not vice versa. I assume thats why in days gone by theyd spend a week “getting a drum sound” before they ever tuned a guitar etc

besides, its just rock n roll…its not brain surgery. We are talking drums, 1 or 2 guitars, bass, vox and maybe some bgv. If I cant get that working with some powerful sounding drums then ill give it up lol

another nice old track, one of my fave drummers, Denny Carmassi. Interesting huh, Ted Templeman again. Dude knew his stuff

#40

I have never got on with ref tracks.Wish I could