:beerbang:
That’s funny. I have a few customers that bought them upon good recommendations as “recording amps”. They are not bad design and “idea” wise. They just lack in execution.
However… I was at a concert and had the chance to sit directly across from the guitarists backline which happened to be all blackstar. It was the best live sound I’ve ever heard. Enough bottom to compress my chest, smooth midrange and clear articulation at all gain levels…
Wow… was that a hijack or what??? 
I think this is a great topic, probably been over it before on RR too. However, I wonder if you guys are overlooking the emotional motive for why average listeners like music? And buy it. We can debate all day long right vs. wrong mixing tactics and techniques, as per “artistic and technical knowledge”, and bring ourselves to the point of being self-satisfied with “authenticity” and “true to the vision”, but the big question IMO is how does it connect with a listener or audience who cares little for our passion for art and science?
That Piano Man song moves people in bars and cars to wild abandon, singing along and drinking their cares away. If badly made movies and badly arranged/mixed songs sell like crazy and are watched and listened to by adoring millions, what is their ‘secret’? Do they “Fascinate”? 
I wonder if the secret is in the human brain and not the mixing console. 
Agree and disagree with respect. I was lucky enough to be able to study filmmaking with a colleague. There are so many rules to break in film making but you can always spot a director who doesn’t have a grasp of the fundamentals. There will be glaring holes in the plot, scenes won’t follow each other logically and editing will reveal poorly planned scenes.
I know that mixing is subjective, and one persons muddy mix is another persons grunge hop (trademarked genre by the way), I’m just having some fun in this thread trying to get some songs that are just mixed badly - again regardless of their emotional impact. Take the issue of movies. Oliver Stone (or his editor(s) are famous for their quick cuts and jarring movements. JFK is regarded as an example of masterful editing. Natural born killers not so much. They are actually quite similar. Take winner of multiple oscars - Braveheart. Also universally regarded as having some of worst editing for a blockbuster - continuity errors, using the same shot within seconds of each other.
Again, the thread was actually me trying to see the funny side of mixing - by spotting obvious clangers in the mixing of songs that most lay people wouldn’t give a second thought to (like the vast majority of the movie going public).
To give an example of something that is obviously “wrong” in my eyes would be that snare drum on Metallica’s St. Anger. I’ll be so bold to say subjective or not, that snare sound is wrong on every level!
I say that can be summed up quite simply…some people love certain songs despite lousy production. And there’s nothing wrong with that. I think its fun though to look back at mixes that were awful and admire the musical content that succeeded regardless lol.
Well said.
Don’t you think an ‘internet nobody’ that uses them for a living ought to know enough about the amp to evaluate at least some things about it? We’re not evaluating the electronic circuits. We’re evaluating the impact it has on our work…
How’s that any different form an ‘internet nobody’ evaluating certain workflow features that are clearly absent in some DAW’s? Aren’t they professionally designed and released by famous software companies?
This is different than a room full of 6th graders arguing over why they think some pro athletes are overrated. The difference is probably a total lack of understanding about what it actually takes to do the job.
[quote=“Jonathan, post:25, topic:861”]
Don’t you think an ‘internet nobody’ that uses them for a living ought to know enough about the amp to evaluate at least some things about it?
[/quote]Absolutely I do. But I wasn’t talking about me.
[quote=“Jonathan, post:25, topic:861”]
How’s that any different form an ‘internet nobody’ evaluating certain workflow features that are clearly absent in some DAW’s? Aren’t they professionally released software?
[/quote]It’s not, it’s the same principle, especially if that internet nobody use the DAW in the course of earning a living.
I agree with Greg L for what it’s worth. I think this record sounds fantastic. The guitars in particular. It was 1977 - don’t forget! I think the guitar tone was better than Zeppelin. I find it odd that of all punk offerings you would pick this - e.g. The Clash debut album sounds likes it was recorded in a cupboard. You may have a point on the mastering though…
Black Flag, whilst quite obviously lo-fi, I can’t imagine any other way.
Horrible use of a deesser on the Miossec’s (a french Artist) vocal track. The last album i think.
It was probably a deeFFFer
Let us slightly stay on topic . Thanks
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The songs are wonderful but to me the mixing isn’t spectacular. I agree with Johnathan, there were most likely limitations on any songs that are early in a newish genre.
Listen to Love Battery, “Between the Eyes” (early grunge). The instruments are strong but the vocals are buried. And this was on Sub Pop, a up and coming label at the time. All that said in the end the band would have probably ok’ed the final mix (you would hope). They liked it so who am I to say it isn’t right!!
During my efforts to study mixing some of my teachers have made deliberate mistakes for me so that when i figure it out on my own i took pride in it.
How about Beck’s Odelay album? I think some songs on that were pretty popular, but the mixes sound almost purposely “bad” or awkward. I don’t know if Beck mixed them himself, but I think he was one of the early home-recorded acts that became successful.
The edits are jarring, and the arrangements seem beyond psychedelic, though probably inspired by Beatles psychedelia. Instruments are brash and loud, levels are all over the place.
Somehow, though, it works! I don’t think they need fixing. In fact, he might have had some kind of pioneering effect as to what you can “get away with” and still be popular.
That was the lo-fi period correct? PJ Harvey was also quite famous for her home recorded songs. I think his album fit right in with the time it was released, but I do agree with you - it’s quite jarring. I had a quick listen to it today and I would say, it’s age really shows.
This is not bad audio quality in the video, just what the song sounds like.
Probably. I’d guess Beck has ‘evolved’ with his success, but I haven’t kept up. If I heard his more recent stuff, I’d guess I’d still like the older stuff. I almost always like the early raw sound of a band and their songs than their later ‘commercialized’ attempts at maintaining success and a career.
I think the time period was early MySpace IIRC. All kinds of alt and unsigned bands were mixing their own stuff and tossing it up there, so the standards may have sunk to an all time low briefly at the beginning of the “digital download” age. I think that caused a rebound into what we see today, with Pensado’s Place etc and digital mixing ITB maturing as an art form.
Funny, I was actually thinking about Black Sabbath today - and how much some of their songs’ mixes make me cringe…
Yeah, their early stuff was great but heavy on the bass or lacking upper frequencies or something. At least that’s something I noticed long before I even knew anything about audio like I do now. I don’t know if that was recording, mixing, mastering, or a combination. Thick and sludgy. I guess that worked for the musical style and set them apart though.
I wonder if many of you have heard Sabbath’s last 70’s album with Ozzy: Technical Ecstasy. I have the vinyl and used to love that album, mostly for the emotion in the songs. Ozzy was wearing his heart on his sleeve, the musical direction was quite different, and probably the band knew things were crashing. Thinking back, the mixing may have been rather odd or unusual, but again its one of those things that’s different than the norm but fits that particular project. I believe it did poorly commercially, and I’d guess not that many people have heard of it except BS fanatics.