Interestingly I now read that some heavy synth users are turning their hyperthreading off!
Well that’s new for me. So I would get the best performance with as many cores (not threads) I can pay for? That increases my scope for CPU’s, but again Ryzen looks appealing.
I’ve seen on FB and in forums a lot of people talking about Ryzen… on paper it looks like like it would be a great CPU. I’m with Dave in that I’ve always been an Intel guy.
Here’s an Intel vs. AMD test that might interest you…
The main test is between the 2 company’s flagship consumer CPU’s, but the tests do show results for a pile of different chips.
Yes on paper…
But I also came across a thread on the Sound on Sound forum (I think) where someone with a Ryzen 7 computer was saying that the latency was not fantastic, no matter which interface he tried. Apparently that’s a drawback of Ryzen so and that is a big issue!
It’s back to the drawing board. I think a recent i5 with 6 cores will do: about the same price as a Ryzen 7.
This seems to be a good choice of motherboard for me if I’m going for an 8th or 9th gen i5. Just a small question however: it’s got onboard thunderbolt 3 connection, but you need Thunderbolt 2 connectivity. I’m assuming you have a Thunderbolt 2 card installed as an extra. Does this card choice make any difference?
I read a post on Sound to Sound from Pete Cain saying that the Z390 is not good for connectivity with thunderbolt 2, made me wonder how come your set up works so well.
Thunderbolt 2 was dead and buried before the Clarrett even came out, it’s a design choice that honestly has always puzzled me.
To further confuse things TB 2 wasn’t ever supported by Microsoft, so at an OS level, TB3 is the only standard that has ever been supported on the PC side.
Thunderbolt 3 and Thunderbolt 2 were/are as equally stable once you take the converter out of the mix the beta tag doesn’t really mean a great deal here except that end user should be aware of support limitations.
Stability issues come from the implementation of the core TB chipset and how it’s routed around the board. The core chipset (current generation is Alpine Ridge) is sold to the mainboard manufacturers who then have to implement support in the BIOS and route the signal through the onboard USB-C implementation that they’ve chosen.
This is pretty much where it’s going to go tits up if it’s going to do so, and something I don’t really expect to be rectified until it finally goes native to the chipset and everything is handled by the Intel controller and routed via an Intel-native USB-C port. Icelake is promising this later this year, but then admittedly so was Coffeelake last year, Kabylake the year before, Skylake the year before that… well, you get the idea. Don’t hold your breath.
What you need to know is that the Focusrite stuff works best over the Apple converter and doesn’t like the Startech version (almost a reversal of the rest of the market!) which pretty much refuses to let it work at all.
Other than that it’ll probably work. If it doesn’t work over that adaptor then chances are none of the other Thunderbolt interfaces are going to behave much better. It’s very often not an interface issue so much as an implementation issue, which is why I tend to say check out what the support forums are saying for the kit in question and see what other users have managed to get up and running.
Asus and Gigabyte implementation largely work via their own add cards, but the cards in question can be an arse to set up initially, though tend to remain working fine once you have done. The onboard editions are very hit and miss (example: Gigabyte z170 designaire worked with everything, Z370 designaire works with very little) and comes back down to the whole “routing via a third party controller” business I mentioned before. Supermicro add-in implementation when I checked it was great, but 3 times the cost of everyone else and you probably don’t want to be paying the premium for one of those boards. MSI and ASROCK onboard implementations I’ve yet to get around to testing, but they have a few interesting boards now that have peaked my interest.
Sounds like you’re doing all the right research Ev… there is nothing inherently inferior about AMD chips, they are just configured differently. Lots of folks in the performance/gaming computing world swear by them. Whichever you choose, I’m sure you’ll be fine.
I honestly never worried about hyperthreading, knowing that the CPU is not going to be the system’s bottleneck. I haven’t done side by side testing though, so I can’t say whether there would be a noticeable difference. All I know is my music rig is lightning fast (and I am not easy to please on computers).
Fortunately there’s no card needed… TB3 is backwards compatible, you just need the adapter. I’m using the Startech TB3 to TB2 adapter (as recommended by Presonus) but I also have the Apple one too because apparently one works better than the other for different devices.
The Z390 Designaire apparently has had some issues with TB compatibility… but it’s been mostly directed at TB1 interfaces and devices. I can say from personal experience, I haven’t had one hiccup with the Quantum in over 8 months of day-to-day use, and it was literally plug n’ play for me. I did have a RAM compatibility issue right off the bat but the RAM I was using was old so replacing that fixed it. Definitely check the Gigabyte forum, because there was a pretty active thread on there that I was involved with that dealt with all this. I think there was a post on Gearslutz too.
Also from experience… if you try to go down the road of getting a board and adding a TB2 card to it… try to avoid that. I went that way at first, and learned that the TB2 cards are generally garbage and probably require some kind of human sacrifice to get to actually work.
Here’s the thread from the Gigabyte forum:
What it basically boiled down to, was Gigabyte could address some of the backwards compatibility with a BIOS update. There’s a lotta angry people on there, but I think as the thread wore on, they figured that a lot of TB2 devices work just fine, but TB1 is a no-go without a proper BIOS update, which I don’t think has come as of yet, but I also get the impression Gigabyte isn’t in a hurry to address legacy TB stuff.
Thanks, so it’s not a problem. As far as I can tell there’s not much choice in Thunderbolt motherboards: the Z390 is about the only one to chose from.
Edit: what I didn’t realise is that the Z390 is whole class of motherboards beginning at about 100 euros. The one you have is more than twice that price. Any important reason for not choosing a cheaper one?
I’m still not sure if I want to go this route because a second hand RME fireface 800 would result in a substantially cheaper solution. Edit. I was a bit optimistic, it was based on an offer of an RME that was already sold with one broken Firewire port.
Same goes for a second hand RME PCIe card. Edit: again not true for a similar reason… The thing I haven’t found out yet is if you can use a relatively in expensive interface with ADAT in/ out (like the Behringer UMC 1812 Uphoria with Midas preamps) as an outboard for both inputs and outputs. Those pre’s are good enough for me. But I’m not sure you can use it that way (without the USB connection of the Behringer) and also if its possible the Beringher introduces some sort of unacceptable extra latency. Any ideas?
I also came across an alternative for RME that sounds promising: the Marian A3. It’s a PCIe to ADAT card similar to the RME, but about 40% cheaper. I’ve heard of them before, I think they make stuff for large studios as well. I couldn’t find reviews on the internet except personal experiences of one or two owners. They reported very low latencies like the RME. Possibly a good option, but will it really work , and how risky is it to have a product that nobody else owns…
What brand of interface do you use Dave? Maybe you’re using one I don’t know yet 
I have a Creative E-MU 1616m, which I believe is now a discontinued model. But you can get them on reverb.com and Ebay. Here’s the SOS review of the interface:
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/emu-1616m
I really like having the breakout box on my desktop, makes it so easy to plug things in, and all the controls are right there. IMO the main brains of the system being a PCIe card that’s installed inside the computer, rather than a USB, is a superior solution for reducing latency. I never use the PatchMix DSP utility it ships with though, I just do everything inside Mixcraft. It has just two inputs, and I leave one dedicated to mics, with which I record acoustic instruments and vocals, and use the other for DI for electric instruments. That’s all I need.
You’ve heard most of my stuff so you know what the sound quality is like. SOS thinks highly of it too.
I didn’t know about this interface. Looks like what I need more or less (in fact very similar functionality as my Focusrite Sapphire Pro). You forgot to mention it has ADAT so if you ever want to record a band you could buy an 8 channel pre (Behringer has one with Midas preamps for about 170 euro’s). And a shit load of mics of course…
I’ve had a look around, but couldn’t find one. A pitty EMU was taken over by Universal Audio and they went for Thunderbolt (who’s interfaces are apparently not all that fast because the drivers are not fantastic).
You beat me! Lets assume it was your producer/ mixing skills, not just your interface 
Here’s one currently on sale at Ebay…
https://www.ebay.com/p/E-MU-1616M-Digital-Recording-Interface/115247763
Ah you found one! Not a bad price even if I include the costs of importing it to Europe.
I’ve just decided to follow a plan or I’ll get nowhere. First I’ll give my current set up a last chance. After all on paper it should do quite well (on paper - from the well known TAFKAT tests - my interface should do well with quite acceptable latencies), and the clock speed of my i7 should be more than enough. Right now it’s working. If it goes haywire again that’ll be the final straw: ill build a new desktop. Before deciding on an interface I’ll first try out the new computer with my (not so) trusty Focusrite. If that doesn’t solve it I’ll go for a new (or second hand) interface where right now I might go for this Marian A3 with a Behringer interface hooked up via ADAT, or if it available then your E-MU 1616.
I think it was because at the time I bought, there were a LOT less options. The GB board was the only one (that I recall) that had all the specs I was looking for.
As for using an interface with ADAT for it’s pre’s… it’s possible, but I think that varies from unit to unit. Prior to the Quantum I was using a Focusrite Liquid Saffire 56 over firewire. It actually allowed you to put it in a standalone mode to use it’s 8 pres output to ADAT. I’m not sure if other units have this kinda functionality, but it stands to reason that other Focusrite units might.
Try bypassing interface and run just Asio4all at 2048 .I done that with reaper, 8 gig of ram and it was fantastic with really big mixes .I have protools 12 on 16 gig of ram running asio4all at 1024 and their dont seem much difference in both .All my mixes are totally in the box and i dont bother with an interface anymore at all
Evert,
I don’t know that this will be helpful to you cuz my sense is that you are very committed to Windows, but since no one really mentioned it, I’ll throw out that for me the solution was to jump platforms and switch to Mac OS.
I was a huge Windows devotee until a few years ago. @Chordwainer’s summary above of how easy it is to upgrade and customize your computer setup is spot on. Nicely summarized. I used to do that too, and honestly enjoyed doing that stuff.
One of my frustrations with Windows, though, was how often I had to keep doing those upgrades and upgrading my computer altogether.
When I switched to Mac all those problems went away. My experience with Mac has been wonderful. Will never turn back.
The lifespan of my Macs is incomparably better. I don’t use them for music anymore, but I actually have two Macs from 2007 that are still used regularly!
My DAW Mac is a 2012 Mac Mini. Only upgrade I did was bumping up to 16 gb RAM. 100% stable and snappy. Extremely reliable.
So that’s my two cents, fwiw. The downsides are twofold: first, there’s no question that there be a learning curve with the Mac. I’m wired that way so it wasn’t a big deal for me, but I can attest that generally of my employees and friends that have made the switch found it challenging.
The second thing is compatibility of vst’s. All are not dual-platform, and even if they were cross platform, some vst’s required another license for the Mac. Also, for at least one of my vst’s (S-gear), even though it was cross-platform, and even though I didn’t need to purchase a second license, none of the vst settings carried over to my projects on Mac. That was a pain.
I could also comment that “most” commercial plugin offerings available on Windows are available on Mac. Not true for freeware plugins, however. A lot of freeware plugins are Windows-only (or Mac-only).
So, I strongly suspect it won’t be an option for you, but for others reading it might be. Seemed fittin’ to just share my experience.
For me, it worked, big time, in spite of the downsides with the transition above.
My main problem with latency is that you can’t play guitar or keyboards with substantial latency, let alone e-drums. Setting the buffer at 1024 is only an option for mixing (I don’t have substantial latency problems mixing) , not for tracking.
I must admit I have been contemplating Mac, but… they are substantially more expensive and indeed I can throw 30% of my plugins out (a lot of freeware) including a few favourites. And they use quite old chipsets (unless you pay a hell of a lot of money). I hear they perform well never the less. What I’m learning from my current research is that the drivers make all the difference, and I suppose Mac takes music production more serious than Windows? Could you give some more specs of your Mac mini and how many tracks/ plugins you can run on it before it maxes out? And what sort of interface do you use, and how is the latency?
I have nothing for or against Mac or Windows (I have an i-phone and actually like it better than my previous Android phones!), but I want to be sure about performance in relation to costs. I guess thunderbolt connections pose no problems for a Mac. Something to be aware of if I want to go for a thunderbolt interface.
Thanks for your advice in any case.
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RME, Focusrite and Presonus should all be good.
You can save money by assembling your computer yourself, but not a huge amount.
Since hooking up my main machine to the net there are sometimes audio glitches, which I suspect come from my Bitdefender software. I cancel other virus and malware processes when I unplug the machine from the net to do music. The glitches go away after a while.
I use Cubase 10 Pro, which I find stable and I have 16 Gb on a Windows 7 machine.
Cheers, Sven
That’s really debatable. I’d argue that Macs are actually less expensive than PCs, depending on what you get. I can get a MacBook Air that’s a year old for $700, and use it for 5-6 years, sell it for $300, and start again. I compare that with so many employees and friends that are buying laptops every 2-3 years. They might pay less up front, but they need to replace or upgrade at least 2-3 times more often than me.
Can’t argue with you there. You’d need to go thru your library and see which ones are available on the mac.
That’s a great question. So, I bought my current mini in 2014, used, at four years old:
2.5GHz Core i7 “Late 2012” with Thunderbolt, 8GB DDR3, 500GB 7200RPM HDD, AirPort 802.11n, Bluetooth. Includes OS X 10.8.5. Used - Excellent condition, ≈$1100.
Since upgraded to 16 GB for $50 or something like that.
Now, my previous computer was a custom-built ADK purchased in 2009:
Penryn P35 chipset, Intel-Penryn Q8200 Quad Core Processor - 2.33GHz, 1333MHz FSB, 4M L2 Cache, Samsung ST DDR2-800 1gig CL4 memory, 500G 32Meg Sata II HDD. $1000. That doesn’t include the cost of the OS. THAT comptuer had a “very quiet” Antec Quiet Mid Tower Case. It was so loud, I had to also purchase a sound-proof enclosure to store it in. It laster a little over four years and was maxed out. Couldn’t handle REAPER and my plugs and more than a handful of tracks.
My Mini is truly whisper quiet and stable, stable, stable. Criminy, it’s seven year’s old! (I bought a two-year-old mini cuz the specs on the 2014 were identical).
Add to that that Apple’s support is unparalleled.
So, I might . not have projects as demanding as yours. I typically might have 30-40 tracks. Not all instruments, many are folders and fx buses, etc. I might have say, two acoustic guitar rhythm tracks, an acoustic lead track, 2-4 elec guitar tracks, bass guitar, some synth tracks, and addictive drums 2, which will eventually get rendered to a full kit. All my electric tracks might run an amp sim, a couple of EQs, 1 or 2 compressors (one maybe on a buss). Saturation plugins. A parallel buss for grit. A main vocal track and some gang background vox. EQ an compression on vox and busses. ReaTune on vox (REAPER’s “melodyne”). Aux tracks with several different delays, verbs (plate, room, etc.), gates. Master bus will have a couple of compressors and eqs, multiband, vitamin, limiter, blah, blah blah.
I’m not looking at any particular project as I’m listing all that, but I think some facsimile of the above is typical for me. Doesn’t seem to matter what I throw at it, it’s stable. And if I do start to bog down (not often), I just freeze some tracks and keep going.
You get the idea.
I agree though that you really have to weigh the cost of lost plugins. That was a pain. Where I’m at nowadays is that I now factor that in before I purchase a plugin. A sizable chunk of my plugs are now Waves, so I’m good to go.
Hope that helps. Mac isn’t for everyone. No question, it’s a transition. FWIW, I am very happy I did it. 
Edit: I use a first gen Focusrite 6i6