My first bashing upload: Amazing Grace, Amazing God

[Tesgin]

Tegan, add a copy of the scaled down version I helped with above your new one in the original post. That way the others have some reference here to see where you started with and keep adding the new versions below it. That’ll help people follow the thread and comment on them. Do something like

original mix (date)
Song

jonathan quick rough (date)
song

guitars added (date)
song

… once people get familiar with your work you probably wouldn’t need to, but for this it might help. That way it makes it easier for someone to track your steps

Okay, here it is.

This was my original mix, posted on homerecording.com, on October 8:

Here was Jonathan’s remix:

Then this was the latest mix, as above, adding back in the lead guitar and EG1, with Jonathan’s mix:

You’ll probably start getting a lot of comments on the timing like on the other site.

Ugh. I hope not! But you’re probably right. Actually, there weren’t any comments on the other site about timing: it was about tuning and pitch problems. Hah! So, yeah, that’s what bashing is all about, right?

Seriously, this is all very helpful. I wouldn’t have thought of timing issues as being a problem with this song; however, I think you guys are right. As I’m listening to it, it is subtle (at least to me it is), cuz as I listen, to my ears it seems “fine.” But, Jonathan, I’ve been practicing with some drum loops, as you suggest, and I think it’s starting to click for me: what I’m noticing is probably what I’d call “tightness.” And when I lay down some grooves, focusing more on keeping them very tight with the drums, then add another part, and another, focusing always on staying on the beat, I find I have a groove that is quite tight. It “mixes itself,” as they say.

So, as I listen to my song here, I don’t hear that. I had to work very hard on this mix. It certainly doesn’t mix itself! I wouldn’t have thought of this song as having a timing problem, cuz it’s on tempo, but not tight. When I’m spot on, tight with the tempo, there is a certain “magic” or “life” to the music. Without it, it doesn’t sound “off tempo” to me: it just sounds like “something’s missing.” I’ve always assumed that “something” is about the mix. Now I’m realizing it’s before-the-mix.

So, am I making any sense? Am I close?

[Cristina]

When I’m spot on, tight with the tempo, there is a certain “magic” or “life” to the music. Without it, it doesn’t sound “off tempo” to me: it just sounds like “something’s missing.” I’ve always assumed that “something” is about the mix. Now I’m realizing it’s before-the-mix.

So, am I making any sense? Am I close?

Yeah that’s my feeling about it to!

[vtr]

Thats such a nice song, i would do a remix of it… something like this, I’d expect.

[Wicked]

The first thing I notice is the timing issues. You can hear it as soon as the song starts and there are many spots throughout the song that you can hear the looseness. To me it feels like the song is barely just staying together. The timing is by far the biggest problem with this recording. It dwarfs all the other issues that the recording might have EXCEPT the kick drum…How the hell has nobody mentioned that slappy, in-your-face kick? The kick accentuates the bad timing issues. I would lower the volume on that and try to blend it into the mix with a subtler touch. Even the groove that the kick is creating seems to fight with the music. Less might be more in this case.

The best way to fix the recording is to re-record the guitars and vocals in time with the drums or a click. Also, try multiple vocal takes, so that you can pick and choose which ones have the best timing and pitch.

This could be improved dramatically. Tighten this recording up and fix a few of the other issues and this song will be good to go. It’s a pretty decent first effort.

[Tesgin]

Thats such a nice song, i would do a remix of it… something like this, I’d expect.

Thanks, Vaughan. Much appreciated.

TB

[Tesgin]

The first thing I notice is the timing issues.

Thank you, Wicked. Between your comments here, and Jonathan’s, and Cristina’s, I’m beginning to understand I have something to learn about timing. This is making a lot of sense to me.

I read your post a year-and-a-half ago on this …

Why do your songs suck?

“Timing is everything”…That saying is very true in the music recording world.

One of the easiest ways to spot a novice is their poor timing. Since I began recording I’ve become very aware of timing because it’s so important for creating a tight, pro sounding track. Using a metronome is a great way of improving your timing. Recording your playing or singing is also a good way of analyzing your timing, pitch, dynamics, etc. Recording can make you a better musician. Conscientious practice and objective observation can take any musician a long way.

This is new to me (amazingly). Not like I’ve never known that, say, practicing to a metronome is important; I just never realized “how” important it is, and how much of an issue this is in my music – in my playing. This will be helpful.

Ugh. So a novice I am! Okay, I can do this!

I’m gonna re-track the guitars and probably the vocals from scratch and repost. It’ll take a little work, so IDK I’ll be able to get it up in the next few days, but I’ll do it. Time, time, time. Ugh, again.

I’m encouraged by this. I’m eager to see what kind of difference it’ll make.

So, before I re-track, I’d love to hear anyone’s thoughts on the instrumentation: Cristina commented on the guitars being too similar, and too crunchy/bright.

Should I stick with the same idea and just tighten things up? Should I go for a totally different tone on EG1? Go acoustic? Any suggestions on instrumentation?

Also, if any other guitarists out there would have an interest in re-tracking the guitars, I’d be very open to that. In fact, I’d love that! Just sayin’ .

Thanks, all.

[Jonathan]

So, before I re-track, I’d love to hear anyone’s thoughts on the instrumentation: Cristina commented on the guitars being too similar, and too crunchy/bright.

I wouldn’t worry too much about the amp tone for now, especially since you’re using plugin sims. I’d just get in the ballpark with the tone, but make sure the performance is dead on.

Should I stick with the same idea and just tighten things up? Should I go for a totally different tone on EG1? Go acoustic? Any suggestions on instrumentation?

I would keep the bass line and quantize it. I think that’s one of the stronger aspects of the arrangement.

I would back everything down to one or two rhythm guitars and drop most of the leads.

I would get that bass quantized first. Then I would mute all vocals while tracking guitars so you can pay super close attention to the timing.

[Tesgin]

Continuing the discussion from Amazing grace:

I would keep the bass line and quantize it. I think that’s one of the stronger aspects of the arrangement.

I agree. My buddy, Scott, is awesome on bass and he laid down a killer track.

So, when you say quantize, I’m thinking MIDI. This was DI. Is there a way to quantize an audio track?

[Jonathan]

@Cristina @bozmillar… and anyone else who uses Reaper. What’s Reapers equivalent of Pro Tool’s elastic audio or Abletons transient warping?

[vtr]

I assume you mean this.

http://www.kennymania.com/reaper-videos/#reaper-5-explained

#20 Stretch Markers

[Cristina]

So, when you say quantize, I’m thinking MIDI. This was DI. Is there a way to quantize an audio track?

I would cut up the waveforms and move them around as much as you can get away with. To me that’s easier and more natural sounding than time-stretching them.

[Tesgin]

I would cut up the waveforms and move them around as much as you can get away with. To me that’s easier and more natural sounding than time-stretching them.

Cristina and other fellow REAPERites. Here’s passing on a pretty impressive video by Kenny Gioia explaining some pretty impressive features in REAPER, documenting it’s ability to edit wave forms for timing. I was not aware of this feature. This isn’t the same video that Vaughan recommended, but references that one and details some additional nuances of how to use what they call “stretch markers.” The part I found useful was about “Transient Guides,” which, when adjusted become markers that you can drag to adjust timing.

For info specifically on how and when to use the transient guides, go to 7:13.

Thanks again, Vaughan, for putting me on to this! Wow. You guys will love this! Seriously. To my ears, edits are pretty seamless.

So, I haven’t had time to do much with this song this week; all I’ve been able to do is fix the bass as described above. Actually, it didn’t take much, cuz my bassist, Scott, was pretty tight with the metronome. Still, this made it tighter.

I’m hoping to be able to lay down the guitar tracks sometime this weekend and will repost. Here’s hoping it makes a difference.

Thank you guys again for the feedback. More to come!

[aaron_aardvark]

Tesgin,
Thank you for the review! Now your recording: the vocals sound much more impressive when there is more than one vocal track. The timing can be tighter in some places, especially the intro. I don’t recall hearing a rock version of this song, so that’s pretty cool. I use Melodyne Editor. More often than not, I combine a non-pitch corrected vocal track (or sometimes half pitch corrected) with a track that has pitch correction. It often sounds less pitchy than just a pitch corrected track for me, and gives pseudo double-tracked vocals, which sound more full (after time shifting the vocal tracks 0.020 to 0.030 seconds). If you don’t already use pitch correction, I recommend Melodyne. It can do timing correction, but more often than not, the timing sounds worse for me. I have used it successfully on electric bass a few times. Your audio quality sounds pretty good, I don’t have any advice in that regard.

[Tesgin]

Please re-bash!

So I’m taking another run at it. I pretty much re-recorded the whole song, except bass and drums. I did tighten up the bass a touch, some minor tweaks.

I did two versions.

On THIS version, both electric guitars are totally re-recorded, with priority given to tightening them up, a LOT. Jonathan, Cristina, et al, you were absolutely correct. Man that’s a lot of work! I’m hoping you’ll tell me this is an improvement. This has been a learning experience for me.

Cristina, I re-did EG1 (first guitar, left side) using my PRS in center position, just for you! The previous version was done on my strat with the bridge pickup. Much harsher. EG2 is also totally re-done, also on my PRS. Mellower tone. Seymour Duncan pickups, btw.

I tightened the vocals and, as Jonathan suggested, moved the opening vocals up an octave. Both versions have totally new vocal tracks and I totally re-did the background vocals as well. Also used ReaTune to tweak any vocal pitchiness (haven’t had the time to figure out Waves Tune from the Gold Bundle yet; seems unintuitive and clunky to me. Ugh.).

So, here’s version 1:

Version 2 is a slightly different arrangement: lost the lead guitar and EG2 is on my Fender. Grittier. Different feel on EG2 and without the lead.

Sorry for taking so long to re-post. Been busy with work and life, but also have been really busting my bottom on the guitar work.

So, in addition to just a good bashing, my specific questions would be feedback on which version is the better direction to go, and also, compared with my original post, what y’all think of the high vs low register on opening verse.

And, of course, the biggie, please comment on the timing.

Thanks in advance!

[Wicked]

Seems like you really sharpened up the timing. It’s much tighter now. That was a really important issue to fix!

I still find that the kick drum is really distracting. It has a very “slappy” sound to it that draws my attention to it…not in a good way. I have quite a few old demo recordings in which I used a drum machine and your kick drum sounds very similar to the kick drum in my demos. Not sure if you have the option to replace that kick with a subtler/ less slappy kick sound, but I think that could be improved a lot.

All the guitar and bass parts seem cool. The bass has a good sound but I find the sum of all the guitars to be a bit overwhelming from a listeners point of view. I think the riffs are good but the particular guitar sounds make things sound messy. The first thing I’d try is to cut back on reverbs and distortion/ overdrive…Maybe even bring the guitars down a bit. I’ve found that you don’t really need much effects and distortion when you have multiple guitars playing. Even with a single electric guitar sometimes it’s better to use these things very sparingly so that it introduces less noise into the recording…UNLESS you have a really good sounding guitar…AND it depends on the particular song.

You’ve made really good progress on the song. Keep up the good work!

[Jonathan]

Wow. Noticeable improvement on the timing. Keep working on it!

I still like the second one better.

There might be an issue with the clarity in the lead vocal. Its like there’s an excessive room verb or a doubler on there thats creating a weird ambience. If you go back to post number 12 and listen to my first mix, take a quick note of how focused and forward the vocal is. If you want to add a widening effect on it, I can show you some tricks on that down the road when you get some more feedback on the guitars and are ready to take a shot at that lead vocal.

[Tesgin]

Astute observation on the vox. I added the Waves Reel ADT to get somewhat of an anolog tape doubling effect on the vocals. Wasn’t sure if I liked it either. I think I did maybe like it on the background vocal group, but wasn’t sure about the main vocals.

Man, ya can’t get away with _nothin’_with you!

Seriously, thanks for noticing and commenting. I agree. I do like the more up front vocals. Will go back to that.

[Tesgin]

Not sure if you have the option to replace that kick with a subtler/ less slappy kick sound, but I think that could be improved a lot.

I do have the ability to tweak the kick. I’m thinking losing some in the 2-4K range to lose some of the slap you don’t like? Maybe cut a bit around 200 – 250 Hz to make it less boomy? Interesting you comment on that. I kind of liked the “bigness” of the kick, but maybe it was too much. I’ll fix.

All the guitar and bass parts seem cool. The bass has a good sound but I find the sum of all the guitars to be a bit overwhelming from a listeners point of view. I think the riffs are good but the particular guitar sounds make things sound messy. The first thing I’d try is to cut back on reverbs and distortion/ overdrive…Maybe even bring the guitars down a bit. I’ve found that you don’t really need much effects and distortion when you have multiple guitars playing. Even with a single electric guitar sometimes it’s better to use these things very sparingly so that it introduces less noise into the recording…UNLESS you have a really good sounding guitar…AND it depends on the particular song.

That’s good feedback. Cristina also commented on it being to bright and crunchy, lacking warmth.

So, W, which direction would you go with the two versions? Asking here cuz cleaning up the guitars would be easy to do with the first version. With the 2nd version, the gritty EG2 (R speaker) is kind of central to the mix I’m thinking. Or would you still tame that as well?

So, version 1 or 2 for you, and if 2, would you still tame EG2?

[vtr]

I do have the ability to tweak the kick. I’m thinking losing some in the 2-4K range to lose some of the slap you don’t like?

Dont confuse creating attack/pointyness to the kick drum mic chnnel, with adding back in the midrange (you probably just removed), from your overhead mics. More distant mics provide excellent mid-range for drums, close ones… meh - not so much.

[Tesgin]

Dont confuse creating attack/pointyness to the kick drum mic chnnel, with adding back in the midrange (you probably just removed), from your overhead mics. More distant mics provide excellent mid-range for drums, close ones… meh - not so much.

I’m not sure I understand. Are you saying I should pay more attention to editing the overhead than the kick channel directly? Meaning, to soften some of the slap, take it away on the O/H channel, not the kick channel?