Yeah I don’t think something like that would work here. To me, it feels that anything you add needs to be more subtle or with less abruptness. Synths, piano runs or swells would be great.
I used a lot of orchestration in my EP that I just released just using a midi keyboard and UVI workstation plugins. I stilll need to learn more about orchestration and the plug in itself but yes, it is doable.
1 Like
Great vibe, great song overall. I think the guitar is a wee bit loud overall , lead vocals are struggling. They could use a bit more drive and a bit more aggressive high pass considering that the guitar is providing quit a bit of mids.
1 Like
Thanks for listening and commenting, Michelle!
At what frequency do you think I should cut the low end of the vocals? Do you think compressing them would help a bit also?
not much dynamics in the voice to warrant heavy compression. Maybe a soft compression to add a sonic character if you wish. Just a bit of automation would do just fine.
As for EQ, the sweet spot of your bass guitar is around 130-150ish, so you could soft cut the lows from the vocals upto that spot. The next spot of interest is around 1500 for the vocals, they bring out the grit and the gravel, so I boosted around that and liked what I heard. If you are going for a clapton, AXL Rose vibe, I would shelf it around 9k .
This is sort of a rough curve for the overall track with some spots of interest.
add a bit of stereo in the end and it should smooth out fine
1 Like
Thanks for the detailed explanation, Michelle! I’ll give this a try. I appreciate your help!
1 Like
Erased this post as it quoted Michele and that was not my intent. I meant to just reply to Wicked. Sincere apologies.
Hey Wicked, here’s my take for what it’s worth.
Acoustic guitars: I like the acoustic guitars and feel they have a nice old sound that works with this. However, at times they lash out at me in certain spots so you would have to determine if automation is the answer, or a little more compression. Me personally? I’d compress because some of the lashing is just in your excitement/execution of how you played the part.
Drums: Seem fine to me for this piece. I think you could come down to a lower frequency to boost the kick drum. It seems a bit too clicky to me and has no oomph or “kick to the stomach”. Not that it needs that, but you can definitely get away with adding some low end to it while lightening up on the bass guitar low end which I’ll get to now.
Bass guitar: a bit of a problem area in my opinion as it seems boosted in the lower end of the spectrum to my ears as well as what my graphs tell me. I’m a bit confused with Michele’s post (not having a go at you Michele, I just don’t see or hear what you hear on my gear) as your bass is pushing elements from 58hz to 75hz a bit too extreme to me. Remember, bass guitar has less low end in it than we think. The good thing here is, you have a clicky kick drum, so you can get away with a bit more lows on the bass. But I’m not seeing or hearing any sweet spots in 130-150 nor does it make a difference for the better on my stuff when I add it in.
I’ve rarely boosted those areas in a bass guitar unless they didn’t have them to begin with. When that happens, usually a guy didn’t have a bass and recorded his guitar trying to simulate a bass. I’ve cut them in those ranges way more than I’ve ever boosted. That said, before we can determine where to boost, that low end from 58 to 75 is the biggest issue I hear. Once you high pass that and decide where to boost your bass, the entire sound will change. If it’s me, I’m going to work with 70-80hz coming out of the gate and see how I fair, but I’d use a high pass from 70 or 80 on down and adjust the Q or slope for fine tuning to control how much is taken out from the selected frequency. Some eq’s don’t allow you to do this, but the one’s I use do.
Next is, you have to determine when to boost the low end frequencies in a bass, and when to just turn the bass fader up louder. People struggle with this when their listening environment isn’t quite right, they don’t have a sub, or they mix in cans. These are the things good monitors and correction can fix. If we don’t hear where the issue is, we can’t make the right decisions. So this is crucial. Not saying this is you, just saying what can contribute to it.
Electric guitars: I didn’t think they were too loud at all. In rock mixes of today, they are the loudest thing in the mix next to kick and snare. However, your guitars are lacking mid range, and have more low mids and highs, which in turn can make them a bit harsh to people due to the high end sizzle and there’s no mid range definition. It’s not a bad tone, but it’s a little fizzy and sort of lacking depth and size. Kinda like a direct recorded guitar without an impulse being used. They always sort of fall short with having good sound size delivery and wow factor. Not saying that’s what you did, but that’s along the lines of what I hear.
Most distorted guitar sounds can be high passed from 80hz on down or even 120hz on down. It depends on the guitar sound, how much gain, what chords are played, how much bass was used, and whether or not the chords are “chugged”. Chugged high gain can be the death of you and will really ramp up your levels on certain chords. Just so you see what I mean for you head. Open a channel in your DAW and arm it. Chug an A chord and watch your meter. Then chug an E. See the difference? Chug a few different ones and watch the meter. Add excessive lows or low mids and you really ramp up. You really don’t need that type of push in there. I’ve high passed from 160hz on down at times. Just like we don’t need a lot of low end in a bass, we don’t need lots of low end in guitars either. I’m not saying strip them so they sound thin, but there are sounds you have to listen for that determine where to go.
If you solo up a guitar and start to high pass, and hear a low end rumble disappear as you sweep up in frequency, as soon as it goes away, you can usually add a slight amount back in. The sound you’re looking for is almost like the sound of someone blowing into a mic on a low G note going “ohm” or a low wind “whoom” type sound blowing into a mic.
You also have to watch low mids as they can become congestive low mids that take your guitar right out of the mix. When you gather up the low mids of the bass, the kick drum, and the vocals, you can really have a stage full of frequency masking. The good thing is, I hear EVERYTHING in your mix perfectly. We just need to define a few spots.
Vocals: I like them until you go up higher in the register, then they get thin, raspy and sort of cop that low-fi abrasiveness. They are also a bit low in spots, which is standard for mixes of today. Sometimes when we sing, we hate the sound of our voice so we mix it a little lower. I’ll share something with you related to that.
When you speak or sing, the bones in your face echo the sound. By the time it hits your ears, what YOU hear is different than what WE hear. This in turn makes us cringe when we hear ourselves on an answering machine or when we sing. The key here is to accept what this “out of my body” voice sounds like. We can’t hear the one you prefer lol…so you have to deal with the one that makes you cringe. That said, when we mix and tend to not want to hear too much of ourselves, we need to learn to compensate. My rule of thumb was to always raise my voice +0.5 to +1.0 louder than where I felt it should be. In time, you get it right without having to do that. Also, and here’s a huge one for you. The people listening to your song for the first time, may not know the words especially if you don’t include a lyric sheet. So make sure they are heard at all times. The same with lead guitar or any lead instrument. You know what’s coming next, so you tend to allow your memory to dictate the loudness of an instrument. You have to put yourself in the seat of a first time listener. 
Agree with Michele with her comment about not going compression crazy vocally. I’d automate. However, I would NOT remove any low end from them. Your low end issues reside primarily with the bass and those electric guitars pushing low mids. You fix that stuff, and this mix changes instantly. On the vocals, it’s tough to tell what’s happening eq wise once you go up. My initial thoughts are, you’re tightening up your throat to get higher in pitch and in turn, it’s sort of going a bit nasal. I’d suggest eq automation on those parts and start by lowering 2k to 4k and see how you fair. You’re fine on the more quiet parts. But I do not feel lowering low end on the vocals will solve anything. It will make them thinner. I’d definitely turn them up a bit though for sure.
On the back up vocals, make sure they are not eq’d the same as the lead vocals. You want a slight differentiation because it’s a back up part that shouldn’t be dominant unless it’s a duet.
Song length: I’m a stickler for say what you need to say and move on. If only my brevity in my post writing was that easy. LOL! Songs to me get boring fast with repetition as well as “length for the sake of length because I can.” Not accusing you or anyone else of that, but unless there are some amazing movements and stimulating musicality, it’s hard to listen to something that sort of sits there repeating.
I heard your explanation as to why etc, and it’s perfectly ok. I’m just giving you my take on what what makes me enjoy something. Not everyone has to do the regular 3-4 minute song. I’m all for the long ones as long as they keep my interest. And, I DID enjoy this.
I have a song I did with a band one time that is over 12 minutes long. It’s so mind blowing (the band that wrote it, not me LOL) that 12 minutes go by in seconds and you are in total amazement from start to end. The piano player played on a song of mine on my last album, DanziLand and told me “you owe me a guitar part on one of my songs when I’m ready.” When he called on me to do it, I was so blown away, I didn’t play for the first 2 minutes of the song. These 20 year old kids were so amazingly talented, they had all their chord changes and formula’s on a black board. I had to show up, read their charts and play. I was both dumbfounded and in awe. I went there never hearing the song. We recorded my first take on rhythm guitar and second take of the lead spots. To this day, it’s one of the coolest things I’ve ever had the pleasure of being a part of, and the longest song I’ve ever played on. I just wish I would have been the one that recorded it as the recording wasn’t very good. LOL!
Anyway, I think you did a really good job on this and you’re close to where you need to be in MY opinion. Try what others have suggested as well and see how you fair. I’m not meaning to take anything away from the advice you’ve received, I just don’t hear what others may be hearing and wanted to at least explain my take and why. I’m all for learning from the other people here at all times and am open to discuss or learn about where I may be missing things.
2 Likes
that was in reference to the high pass cut off @Wicked had asked for. To me, vocals could use a soft Q high pass around that, it would not cut much meat from the vocals out. The vocals are subdued by the guitar in my opinion. A high pass in the vocals could make them sit better in the mix. I am listening to it in a treated room.
If done right, the vocals would not sound thin in reference to the mix. They do seem to need a bit of cleanup for sure.
I am bit confused here… I did not post a 2nd reference mix ? If you are referring to the eq curve, those are just areas of interest, nothing more. Not a model of the final mix.
Maybe I could explain it better with some examples. Here is a very rough draft with some soft cuts and boosts in the areas of interest I mentioned, not intended to be a reference track as these changes were done on the whole track mp3.
@Wicked hope I didnt intrude on your mix. Just posting what I heard on my end. I also understand a lot of advice is affected by personal preference, as may be the case here as well. I tend to prefer the vocals in a mix like yours to have a bit more clarity and crunch - not necessarily thin.
2 Likes
I’m loving your comments, Danny! It’s that kind of advice that can really teach me to improve my productions. That was great! So many interesting points that I want to work on, one at a time. I might be wanting to ask you some questions in the future, but I’ll probably be hesitant because I really hate to bother others. So many insights in that one post!
I tend not to use much compression but I think you’re right, a bit of compression might smooth out some of those transients. I’ll probably use the “acoustic guitar” compression preset in Reaper’s ReaComp and read up on compression for acoustic guitars.
Ah, glad you mentioned that. I kind of neglected the drums, except for some volume automation. I’ll see what I can do with the clicky kick sound.
I’ll reply more, when I have time, and after I digest the info from your post. That was an awesome post. Thanks for taking the time and effort to write that, Danny!
1 Like
Michele, thanks for the example. Much appreciated. Will listen when I get back to the studio later. On break for a few hours and never listen to anything crucial in my phone.
1 Like
Wicked, it’s my pleasure. Please PLEASE never feel you are bothering me. You and others can ask me anything at any time. If I know the answer, I’ll do my best to explain and elaborate. If I don’t, I’ll say I don’t know and will try my personal colleagues to see if they know.
Sorry the post was so long. That’s one of the reasons I don’t normally comment here because I can’t always take the time to explain in depth so people can actually learn something. Part of me being a recording instructor is to be as thorough as possible and leave no stone unturned. So please, if I ever lose you or you have questions, never hesitate or feel you’re bothering me. If I can help one person on this site learn something or listen to something differently, I’ve made a difference for the better. 
1 Like
Your post was excellent! The details and explanations that you give are exactly what this site is about.
And that’s why I appreciate your long, detailed explanation. I really appreciate you taking the time and effort to go into such great detail. You have a knack for explaining things in writing. I often find myself struggling to find the right words, especially in Bash This Recording, so sometimes I’ll just choose to say nothing. There’s an art and talent to expressing yourself through the written word and then of course you need to understand audio recording/ engineering/ production too. You combine the two skills very well!
Ah! That shows in your comments and the way you clarify things.
Awesome! Thanks so much, Danny
1 Like
Thanks for that, I really appreciate your kind words and am glad you found my comments helpful
Yeah it’s not easy to convey things in text especially when we live in a world where people are overly sensitive. I try my best not to bash too hard. While I will tell people when I hear something that could be fixed, I feel it is a waste of everyone’s time to post and run without explanation or by leading by example when you have to.
There’s never a reason to obliterate a person’s work and there are several ways to skin the proverbial cat. But part of me always feels the need to debunk some of the stuff in this field. None of it is a dark art or mysterious craft. People that try to make you think that with their infinite wisdom, posted links and technical jargon never seem to serve anyone but their own ego. That was one thing that sort of bothered me here a few times as well as on Brandon’s old site. Even the cakewalk forum started to get like that. So glad it’s not like that here anymore.
2 Likes
Hi Michele,
Having heard your new mix, I’m still not hearing the low end in the vocals as something that I would alter personally. Not that THAT matters at all. I was just hoping to hear what you heard. Why can’t they make a plugin that allows us to hear what others hear? LOL! In your mix, you pretty much mastered his mix from what I hear. The acoustic guitars have a bit more presence where they were a bit more dull before which in turn gives the vocal a little more pop and presence. The mix is also louder.
I’d probably add a bit more sparkle to it too. BUT…if you keep this same sort of curve when he starts to sing up higher and the band kicks in, I really believe the vocals are going to get thin which was primarily what I was talking about in my original post. You can get away with possibly thinning the vocals out in the parts where the mellow stuff is, (although I still don’t hear an issue with the low in his voice as a NEED for adjustment) but doing so in the end with the full band wouldn’t be something I would do because he just pitches to nasal in a sense there.
There’s something strange going on there to where I think a little more low mid may be the saving grace there with a -2 or -3 drop between 5k-8k (or a low pass in those ranges) just to see if the artifact I’m hearing diminishes.
A thick voice with low end is beautiful and to me, only needs to be curbed if it’s literally low end accentuated and ruining the mix. I honestly felt this was pretty neutral sounding until the end where he sings higher. The nasal thing comes into play when he pushes a bit which is not there in the more mellow parts.
I totally understand where you were going in your example, but unfortunately, a 2 track master makes it a little harder to sell because now the guitars are brighter as well and the whole mix is louder compared to his. Whatever you did brought that whole beginning to life in a good way as I felt the acoustic guitars were a bit dull in the original. But, I felt he was going for that old type sound or he would have put new strings on…so I didn’t comment on that. But props to you for making it have a bit more electricity on the whole even though that may not have been your intent. 
Again, I’m not disagreeing with your opinion, I simply don’t hear it as something blatantly touchable. I’d rather him turn the vocals up a little louder quite honestly. I also think this may be one of those times where we have to make a call on “do we cut or boost?” I’m a cutter. But in this situation, if I did anything to those mellow vocals, I’d give them a little sparkle without removing lows. But I kinda liked the whole dullness into the flash bang ending. I just felt that bass and low mids in the guitar were a bit too dominant in the end. Altering them would change the mix drastically if they were adjusted to where you’d actually hear the vocals better without that sub low end hitting so hard.
But hey, at the end of the day, you’ve always posted good work, so continue doing what you’re doing. My work flow these days is less is more, and I only touch something when it sticks out as a sore thumb or is a blatant cause of something that is degrading the mix on the whole. Individual instrument personalities are like the personalities of people. Sometimes if we make them too perfect, the story becomes too synthetic or plastic, if you will. And I know a whole lot about that coming up from the 80’s and the use of over production, over processing, over reverberated, and over use of EQ. LOL!
Now the other side of the coin? I REALLY like Wicked’s voice a lot, but I’m not crazy about the mic capture. It could be an eq curve thing, but sort of like his guitar tone, there is a mid missing that totally changes the delivery if it’s more present. I guess that’s why the lows didn’t bother me and I felt removing them would thin it out. Do you hear the missing mids I’m talking about? It sorta sounds like this to me EQ wise.
------ ____¯¯¯¯
With the mids stripped out to an extent with a bit more high end. Whatever the case, you got some good stuff to mess with now @Wicked. Let us know how you fair.
1 Like
After reading many of the comments, I’m thinking that turning the vocals up might be a good idea. I automated the high vocals to be about 2.7 dbs quieter than the low vocals. I figured that the high vocals cut through the acoustic guitars much better than the low vocals… My brothers have often told me that I tend to mix vocals a little too loud, so I’m probably overcompensating in the opposite direction. When I was mixing this song, I did like the loud vocals that I originally had, but I tried to pull the vocals back a fair bit so that the acoustic guitars still had some attention. I didn’t EQ or add any effects to the acoustic guitars. I think I could bring out some shimmer in the guitars and bring the volume of the vocal up a bit. The EQ can make the guitars shine a bit and the louder vocals won’t dwarf the guitars.
Also, I’m starting to question if I should have automated/ reduced the volume of the high vocal so much. It might sound better if it was a bit louder.
If you have any thoughts on this, Danny, or others, please let me know.
1 Like
I’ll keep you, Michelle, and the gang up to date.
1 Like
Yes definitely could be a preference thing. To me voice seemed very dull and muddy. The beautiful gravel in the voice that he has, was just not apparent all. While it did have some of the classic low end , the mix was just putting a muffler on it . To me the need for a high pass was definitely the first thing i noticed. However, if there is another way to fix the narrow and restrictive nature of that mix, I am all for it. A touch of non invasive high pass seemed like a quick fix.
1 Like
No, you are not intruding at all. I welcome your feedback!
Sorry Michelle, I didn’t see your mix when I first read your post ! That’s weird that I missed that. Did you edit your post/ add that audio clip a bit later? Probably just me. I’m pretty tired and distracted.
The guitars in your mix seem to shine a bit more, so I see what you’re getting at. I’ll give it a better listen once I’ve had some sleep. Thanks for your help!
1 Like
I do it about 2-3dB lower as well. You want a blend, not a duet.
Whatever Michele did was perfect in my opinion. She didn’t over accentuate the highs and make them “plinky” sounding, as I like to say.
High vocal thing, just experiment. Vocals are really subjective, as is everything else in this field when you really get down to it. However, if you feel in your gut you lowered them too much, chances are you may have. Take a little break from the mix and come back with fresh ears in a day or so. It’s amazing how things changes with a little time away.
I thought I had my new album nailed exactly the way I wanted until I took 3 months off from it. NOW I got it right and I’m not touching a thing! Hahaha!
3 Likes
I added the clip later yes.
I wasnt actually trying to showcase the guitars lol. I just worked on the entire mix as a whole when I only wanted to isolate the vocal frequencies and got lazy. But if you like it, thats cool The whole mix sort of seemed to shine when I sweeped with the eq around your vocal range a bit.
I cut the lows with a wide Q upto 130 on the whole mix. Boosted a bit at 150 , cut at 320 , narrow boost at 1.6k and boost at 9k just enough to avoid the guitars going tinny . In the end I added a bit of soft compression and tape saturation to add some classic touch and stereo spread. It sounded good by the time. However, I still think it could be handled better at the mix level instead of post processing.
1 Like
Howdy, @Wicked. Listening now and reading comments. Boy, what can I add. This is like a graduate-level education just reading the comments. Don’t know that I have much to add that could hold a candle to what’s been said.
I like this song! There’s a simplicity to it that really works.
I think the biggest issue with your production is just in the recording of the guitars. The playing is wonderful and the blend is good. But the guitars just don’t sound good acoustically. I think you nailed the biggest issue in your second post: cheap guitar, old strings. The strings sound dead. Have you considered re-recording the guitar? I’m hearing the song with a Martin. There’s a fullness, richness to the tone – and a balance – that’s just missing.
Now, that said, I was quite impressed with the tweaks @FluteCafe did with her EQ snippet (post 27). Impressive, Michele!
The other thing (well, this might be personal taste, and maybe this is the vibe you were shooting for) is that, well, the guitar sounds too perfect to me. The timing is SO perfect it feels like it’s missing some “humanness” to it. I am curious, and forgive me for asking, but is the guitar looping? Whoever played this (was it you?), if they played that that perfectly for eight minutes, that’s impressive. But there are nuances in the right hand technique that are missing for me – variations, changes in timing, velocity – that make this sound mechanical.
So, please don’t be offended. And that might not be the feedback you want. It perhaps isn’t even proper for me to comment on the recording/playing, cuz, well, this is a mixing forum (IDK.Is it okay to comment on that stuff?). It might not be an option to change any of that. If this is the recording you have to work with and there’s nothing you can do about it, then nothing I’m saying here is helpful.
And my point isn’t to be critical; much the opposite. I really like this song! And the arrangement. Great vibe. I’m just hearing “what could be.” Seriously, this song has potential.
Oh, and the drums I love. The snap in the snare is awesome. WHen the drums come in at 6:30-ish, it hads a lot. And the addition of the band at that point is quite powerful. Could happen sooner in the song.
Anyway, great song. Oh, and your vocals fit perfectly. Nicely done.
1 Like