JK, AJ, Thunderhouse...labels and studio biz

[quote=“AJ113, post:119, topic:1135”]
Ok show me in your law where it says that you can prohibit me from recording and monetising (or licensing if you prefer) my recording your song. [/quote]

Before I do that let me ask one more question, to know which specific part of legislation to point to:

Why do you think film companies order their film music supervisors to acquire license to use recorded works? Are you questioning weather the acquisition of licensing permissions is mandatory, or are you questioning weather failing to acquire the license permissions yet using the recording violates copyright in a way that is actionable?

Do you want to know the full process I’ll go through to press charges according to our Federal Rules of Civil Procedure?

Or do you want to know specifically what the law allows me charge you for?

Now you are back to discussing using recordings. I thought we’d agreed it’s not about specific recordings, it’s about the song’s owner/publisher? Again, you seem to think that a recording of a song is the same thing as the underlying song’s copyright. They are not the same thing, and I don’t have the energy to go over it all again.

[quote=“AJ113, post:120, topic:1135”]
You’re not infringing rights if the appropriate money has been paid. [/quote]

What!? The film studio has to pay for the sync license BEFORE they use the track! Do you think you can use the track illegally and you’re gonna get off Scott free by paying me if I happen to catch you?

Sorry man. Here you can’t commit the crime up front and pay the same later. You don’t rob Walmart then only pay the counter price of the jewelry you stole then go on your merry way. Copyright infringement in the way you’re talking about is a part of our federal law. You get punished for breaking the law, and the punishment is more severe than if you had followed it in the first place.

Some common law torts in the US do not require the at-fault part to have committed the tort willfully. There are different criteria for when a civil copyright infringement case will turn into a criminal misdemeanor, and then escalate to a criminal felony. Some forms of copyright infringement in the US are infractions (means no jail time), others are far more sever. Yes, people do go to jail here over copyright infringement. The US government takes this serious enough to even send first time offenders behind bars for 5-10 years.

[quote=“AJ113, post:122, topic:1135”]
Now you are back to discussing using recordings. [/quote]

I believed that was what you were talking about when you wrote this:

IS YOUR QUESTION THIS???

“Where in US law states that licensing powers are held by the publisher”?

Ok this thread is going nowhere. I’m going to concede 100% everything you have said about movies because it’s not relevant to the main point of the discussion, it’s a side issue.

You said that publishing is worth more in an album deal than the the rights to the master recording. That’s what I took issue with originally.

So, sell your CD for $10, and with a bit of luck you will clear $8 gross profit. That’s $8 from monetising the master recording. Whoever owns the underlying song’s copyright gets 9.1 cents for each song, (from YOU) so if there are ten songs, it’s 91 cents. Therefore, as I have said all along master rights (or whatever you want to call it) are worth approximately 90% more than rights to the underlying song (Ok that’s a generalization but it makes my point reasonably accurately).

So if the record label accounts you are looking at show that there is more money from publishing than there is from master recording sales, you’re either reading them incorrectly, or the publishing revenue probably includes songs that are massive universal moneyspinners like ‘Yesterday’ or ‘Over the Rainbow’. Whatever it shows, it definitely does not show that there is more money from publishing when you sign an album deal.

That is the only point I wanted to make.

If you don’t agree, fine, but freely available information says that I’m right, not to mention my own personal experience of being signed to both a label and a publisher.

I don’t care about being right or wrong, I just want any lurkers to be aware that although you should claim any money you possibly can from your songs, the real money is in your recordings of them.

Fair enough. I’ll wrap it up by saying that if you choose look beyond the album deal at the entire life and longevity of a publishing catalog, you see so much more money than if you were to look only at a single line that showing direct sales. What I would take away from this is that to understand how music companies work, you have to know how to read beyond the sales journal.

Indeed the information is freely available.

I’ll also say to any lurkers, that the greatest entrepreneurs through American history diligently learned the laws and they played by the rules. Our copyright laws are not perfect, but they serve us well, and for that I’m grateful. Though I am not licensed to practice law, I consider the years I spent pursuing it a tremendous contribution to what I love do to.

I respect AJ and I don’t question the merit of his experience. Mine has led to me radically different conclusions. I’ve worked for the largest entertainment company in the world and seen first hand the financial power of its publishing enterprise. I’ve had the privilege of being a part of many different recording/publishing/contracting deals myself. Like AJ I don’t care weather I’m correct or incorrect - I’m always trying to learn and grow, and admitting when you’re wrong is part of that process.

I’ll leave this with one final thought. The richest musician in the world has sold very few CD’s. He built his entire music empire on his publishing.

Andrew Lloyd Webber. Indeed an incredible publishing success. Also, perhaps, an anomaly. The same might be said of Gilbert and Sullivan, if not quite on the same scale? Making it big in the musical theatre world is probably even slimmer odds than in the Pop or Rock world.

Yeah, I’ve already made that point. We’re talking about the general rule not its outliers. I’m guessing you have more chance of winning the lottery than becoming rich via publishing. By contrast, you could burn your masters to CDs and start selling them within a week, and possibly cover your mortgage repayment by the end of the month.

I know of a guy who travels to a different town each day, stops people in the street and asks them to listen to his music on an mp3 player, then asks them to buy his CD. He’s selling 30 to 40 per day, do the math.

What’s his income from publishing? £0.

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Wow, a vagabond artist. Fascinating!