@ramshackles! Good to see you around!! I’ve also been pursuing the idea of minimalism in music lately. Space is such a valuable part of music that often gets overlooked.
I’m really loving what you’re up to here. Looking forward to hearing more!!
The secret is to tighten up the sound at capture by drying up your recording environment and cutting down early reflections. This is super important if you are not using a close miking technique (In fact, it’s important even if you are too).
The early reflections cue our ears to the real size of our environment - they psycho-acoustically define the boundaries around us, so dampening them down with some soft furnishings, blankets, duvets will help to make those boundaries basically “disappear” acoustically.
While it is impossible to know exactly how something was recorded and mixed just by listening, here is what I’d guess I’m hearing in the example of what you are trying to emulate: The vocal and guitar were recorded together in a fairly dry room. This ensures the sources are right up front without any early reflections to push them back in the soundstage. It sounds like pretty close mic technique to me, but there would be some bleed between the vocal and guitar mics.
The vocal is panned centre, the guitar panned slightly to the left. There is a fair bit of saturation in the recording - particularly the vocal - possibly tape saturation, maybe fairly heavy preamp saturation. This also adds to the sense of “up-frontness” in the recording, because it basically acts as a compressor. Another important reason to keep the sources free of early room reflections - these become more apparent, the more saturation/compression is applied.
The vocal has been sent to a reverb that is quite long, dark (ie low passed) and very wide. The dark nature of the reverb ensures that it sits far “behind” the vocal and guitar. To further ensure the vocal and guitar sit right up front, the reverb has a generous pre-delay of probably 80ms or more so as to stop the reverb onset from blurring the sources.
Since there is probably bleed in the vocal mic from the guitar, a little bit of guitar is sent to the reverb with the vocal, so you get a nice stereo spread left and right of both mix elements…
So I’d suggest trying that sort of a tactic with your own recordings. Remember, clean up the early reflections in your room. You can’t possibly get any depth like in the example song you gave simply by using the ambience of a normal domestic-sized room - it will always sound boxy and flat unless you make it “disappear” and then add ambience with some other method.
@redworks
Here are a couple we are working on:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1lwCS8vEitXm1lWJ_Ik9vCxF8ydxymBP8
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1CpAtokMwUN6kNsPJSVrnwn6duxYWdmkz
The first one is an original and was a 3 mic setup. The stereo pair in xy setup pointing pretty much directly at the 12th fret of the guitar, and then a ribbon mic on the singer.
I added a ukelele and keys track afterwards to add a bit of percussive rhythm although I am in two minds about including them since they are not ‘live’. Perhaps low in the mix.
The second one is a cover and was recorded outside (actually, we were sat outside, the mics were about 1 foot back on the threshold of the doorway). I started off just intending to do a single xy pair, but I threw in the ribbon mic just cause it was ready. So in this one the xy pair is positioned more to capture the whole thing and the ribbon mic was positioned to be out of the way of the camera! TBH, I dont think the ribbon mic track is very usable.
In both recordings a major problem is that the voice is probably a few db quieter than you would want in comparison to the guitar. I’m not sure there is a lot that can be done about it.
BTW - on the outside recording, I wouldn’t at all go for the style of the reference I posted and prefer to keep it more natural.
Wow… I think I am finally starting to gain a grasp of “predelay” from this description. For some reason it has always been somewhat counterintuitive for me. Thanks Andrew!
The biggest difference I’m hearing here is the space (and distortion on the vocal track). I would type up a big long thing, but @ColdRoomStudio covered it exactly as I would have.
What a great piece, has a good overall feel. That is a sweet guitar too. How old are the strings on the guitar if I may ask? I think I hear something in the B or bottom E string. Either out of tune or an old string?
Yeah, the actual name “pre-delay”…definitely counter-intuitive… I mean how can a delay be “pre” anything? … I think the name came from how before it was built into reverb controls and engineers were using actual chambers to create reverbs, they would put a delay in the signal chain before (pre) the chamber. That would offset the onset of reverb by however many milliseconds made it sound better.
Sorry I meant “offset the onset of reverb” d’oh!
I suppose the strings are a month old now…which is pretty old for me! I guess it is time to change them…
So as to delay the inevitable?
Reverb is inevitable - indoors, at least!
I liked the first song alright but yeah, the recording is rough-draft sounding.
Just guessing would agree with the “room” issue, then the acoustic guitar seems to be overcoming the mic at times.
It’d be interesting to hear the same tune same mics recording in for example the bedroom, with clothes and mattress up against the wall and duvets and pillows used to tame it down.
then a 3rd version done in a church sized room…then the same song, same mics same recording done in a studio…
then a 5th version done in a hiend studio with U47’s and a choir and symphony total production mode…
I really think a lot of these early recording terms had something to do with woodstock… they are so damn confusing… i mean High pass, low cut?? Low pass high cut? “Pre delay” for a delayed onset of any effect, then there is delay which also used for echo… someone was smoking something somewhere . For us millennials recording terms are a nightmare.
In all seriousness, as others have mentioned. The acoustics are a major player. Room treatments are key to any recording. With proper treatments in place, a simple recording with a basic mic will sound great. If access to a treated place isnt available, try recording outdoors for minimalism. You will be surprised with the results.
In the two clips in your op, the second guitar has a lot more drive, its been compressed and driven it seems. In your first clip the female vocals are slightly subdued by the guitar. The vocals in the 2nd male version are heavily automated, and significantly eq boosted.
You could experiment with riding the vocals and boosting the consonants slightly to create more power. Cut more lows from the vocals ( you can be quite aggressive with the high pass on her voice ) and Try a bit of dry vocal delay sends along with a small amount of 100% wet reverb. Add a bit of stereo width and panning to the guitar and I think you are good.
Another thing to note is that the 2nd track was likely not recorded live and at the same time as the guitar unlike yours. So it had more flexibility to mix and process. I actually liked your live recorded version tbh good work!
Not so simple for dinosaurs like me either!
Over in the “what gave you the courage to sing” thread, I posted a Youtube vid I made a few weeks ago, just me and a guitar, in my well-treated room. As you can read in the set of 3 posts there, I did just about nothing but EQ a high-pass and add a little reverb to the track recorded with a single mic. Dunno if I’d call the sound “great” but it ain’t half bad. Thought I’d point to that here, so that the focus can remain on singing in the other thread.
Michelle @FluteCafe makes some really great points here, and the above was something I was going to mention in my reply, but forgot…
If you are determined to record live as a duo together, you really need to practice controlling your guitar volume so as not to overpower the vocals. Even trying different pick thicknesses can make a big difference to the level projecting from your guitar. Experiment to find what works best.
Getting the balance to work live in the room is vital to the success of the finished product, because once those relative signal levels are received by the mic, trying to undo or change that balance is probably only going to result in a deterioration of the sound.
It’s a case of everything is about getting it right at the source.
Yes i have been playing the tracks that @ramshackles provided and it is a lot of work to get a solid feel of the vocals over the guitar. Also I think it would be nice if you put a mic on both vocalists. I know that you are shooting a video so you are trying to keep them hidden but I think it would be better to just go for it and let the mics be in the video to help you with the sound. To me the sound is primary. Anyway that is my 5 cents.
This one came out a little better:
Ok not guitar this time and still work to do to get the natural balance of vox & instrument correct, but its a bit better.
I went for a M/S configuration with a Rode NTR at 90deg giving the sides and a beyerdynamic mc930 for the mid.
It picked up a lot of the room sound of course, but that is the price to pay. Its not an especially nice sounding room, but since it’s there on the recording a decided against any additional 'verb.
Next one we will go back to the guitar and I am determined to work on my natural dynamics and not overpowering her.
Just an aside comment - in general recording like this has been a pretty liberating and motivating experience in terms of actually ‘getting back into’ music. I don’t really spend more than a hour staring and my screen and mixing and all the arrangement is done up front.
I don’t spend any time worrying or thinking about this or that instrument since I’ve committed pretty much to what we can record just together. We’ve already recorded a couple of songs which were written a year ago or more but put aside because I couldn’t come up with an arrangement I liked. It turned out just sitting down and playing them over and over together with an acoustic forced us into a ‘natural’ arrangement (in terms of what to play on the guitar & how to play it). In the end, these are our favourites
beautiful playing and singing. Reminds me of a french song I absolutely love in the minimalist genre. Its my go to reference track for vocal+ piano
Sounds good - much better balance.