Bash this Song and Recording

[Jon-Jon]

Congrats on the new gear!

Thanks Cristina!

I felt like the intro was too long.

Yeah, I can see where you’re coming from. It takes almost a minute for the song to finally kick in. I could see how shortening that part might be useful.

I think I hear a bass, or am I making that up? Maybe it needs to be a bit louder, or have more mid-high frequencies come through to cut through the mix.

Yeah, I have a walking bass line in there. I added some low end to it and some frequencies around 1500 - 1600 Khz. It seemed to be cutting well on my speakers…maybe even too well, so I turned the bass down a little. I should have another good listen to it. Very possible that I reduced the volume too much. I’ll probably do a remix and bring the bass line up. I’m glad you mentioned it !

Yeah overall it seems a bit repetitive to me, but I really like some of the lead guitar playing, like around 1:42. I might give it more of the center stage. Maybe that main guitar riff just happens to many times for me.

Yeah, I agree.
I had originally planned to start the lead guitar earlier so that the main guitar riff didn’t seem so repetitive but I was dreading the sound of my guitar solo sound (I’m using Amplitube and BIAS amp sims) so I wanted to reduce the length of my lead guitar wanking. By doing that, I created an even more repetitive feel.

probably with the parts u have etc, the song could have been like a minute shorter and it would have been okay

I didnt notice the lead sound being weak etc. if it is it didnt stand out to me

[Wicked]

[Wicked]

probably with the parts u have etc, the song could have been like a minute shorter and it would have been okay

Yeah, that sounds about right. I wonder if I could edit it in Reaper without mangling it too much. Hmmm, I might try that.

I didnt notice the lead sound being weak etc. if it is it didnt stand out to me

That’s good to know. The doubling probably helped it sound thicker.

[Wicked]

gets slightly repetitive. for instance there is some harmonic variety shown in the first 50 secs like where it drops to the different chord at :26 and :34 but then when the riff comes in at :52 it essentially doesnt change for almost 2 minutes. yeah it goes from the I to the IV version (I think) but its still basically the same riff

Yeah, for sure. I might try to edit the song. Maybe I can cut out a minute or so.

Id rather have heard that long section from :52 ish to 2:45ish broken up with a whole different tonality thrown in somewhere. for instance do like Satriani might and go to a pseudo minor key change even something somewhat “out” like an F chord or even a Gm chord for a while just to give the ear more candy.

Or maybe start soloing with the riff in E with the sort of major/minor blues vibe but then go to a C chord and switch the soloing to pure e minor while on the C chord etc. Otherwise its just a bit much on like 2 minutes of Mixolydianish vibe

Some good ideas!

maybe a tiny bit of guitar hum on headphones in the holes where the drums etc drop out…mainly in right channel

That must be coming from the guitars. I have a noise gate on them but maybe it’s not kicking in quick enough. Might be better to just cut those spaces out in Reaper.

[Jon-Jon]

That must be coming from the guitars. I have a noise gate on them but maybe it’s not kicking in quick enough. Might be better to just cut those spaces out in Reaper.

omg, u just gave me a flashback to the time I had terrible finger squeaks on an acoustic and I couldnt stand it and knew no better way to fix it but to manually cut the volume of each squeak using Reaper envelopes lol

[Wicked]

I would agree with Cristina at this point the lack of bass guitar is an issue. Otherwise good as far as the quality of recording.

Good to know that you’re hearing it similarly to Cristina. I have to go back and check that bass in my monitors. Looks like it will probably have to be turned up or EQ’d differently.

[feaker]

Hi wicked Lots of folks commented so I didn’t know if I should. Not my style, but I like it. I like the riff, but it got a little long. Kinda tricky playin that I bet. Worked much better when she really got rollin. ha ha Yup, it’s just that long intro that was hard to get thru. Love to hear this with some vocals and then that great guitar work in between:)

Sincerely

Paul

[Jon-Jon]

Yeah, that sounds about right. I wonder if I could edit it in Reaper without mangling it too much. Hmmm, I might try that.

could do:

1. cut out first 12 secs

or, better yet

2. cut out whole long intro and let the song actually start at the little downward run at like :25. That might work fine because those licks there arent really solo licks anyway, they are more like thematic licks so the song might just start right there and be fine

another possibility for variety might be to cut at like 2;19 where it switches chords and go back and throw in one of the riff parts from the intro just to give the soloing a break, then come back in at that point

I mean, its digital, its not like u lose anything by experimenting lol

[Wicked]

Hi wicked Lots of folks commented so I didn’t know if I should. Not my style, but I like it. I like the riff, but it got a little long. Kinda tricky playin that I bet. Worked much better when she really got rollin. ha ha Yup, it’s just that long intro that was hard to get thru. Love to hear this with some vocals and then that great guitar work in between:)

Sincerely

Paul

Thanks Paul.

I wasn’t planning on putting vocals to this but who knows, maybe I will decide to put lay a vocal down for this in the future.

[Wicked]

could do:

1. cut out first 12 secs

or, better yet

2. cut out whole long intro and let the song actually start at the little downward run at like :25. That might work fine because those licks there arent really solo licks anyway, they are more like thematic licks so the song might just start right there and be fine

another possibility for variety might be to cut at like 2;19 where it switches chords and go back and throw in one of the riff parts from the intro just to give the soloing a break, then come back in at that point

I mean, its digital, its not like u lose anything by experimenting lol

Some good ideas there Jon-Jon. I definitely would like to shorten the song. I’m not too confident in my ability to use envelopes and splicing in Reaper but like you said, it’s digital and non-destructive. I guess I could always make a copy of the song and do my experimenting on the copy.

[Jon-Jon]

its not hard though. right click and “split at cursor” etc

ive cut whole sections out of songs and u cant even tell it lol. Some of what I suggested wouldnt be hard because there arent licks overlapping the bars etc

[ColdRoomStudio]

Sounds cool - I like it! Really my cup of swill

I’m not going to comment on the arrangement or the writing, as much as been said about that already. Mixwise, it needs some work to stop the buildup of mud and boxiness and balance the high end with the low end better.

You have a buildup around 115, and another big one at 180hz and at 370hz. There is also a broad lack of midrange in your mix centred around 800hz and extending up to about 1.5k. Also the highs and high mids are lacking from about 2.5k up.

The issue sounds like low/low mid buildup in the guitars bass and drums, and not enough midrange/high midrange in your guitar tones. The drums could also use more brightness. You’d be best to fix these issues at the track level on the individual elements, as this will achieve a much more natural sound.

Here’s a little sample of what I did simply by eq’ing the stereo mix. Here’s what the eq looked like:

Here’s what that sounded like:

[Wicked]

I’m not going to comment on the arrangement or the writing, as much as been said about that already. Mixwise, it needs some work to stop the buildup of mud and boxiness and balance the high end with the low end better.

You have a buildup around 115, and another big one at 180hz and at 370hz. There is also a broad lack of midrange in your mix centred around 800hz and extending up to about 1.5k. Also the highs and high mids are lacking from about 2.5k up.

The issue sounds like low/low mid buildup in the guitars bass and drums, and not enough midrange/high midrange in your guitar tones. The drums could also use more brightness. You’d be best to fix these issues at the track level on the individual elements, as this will achieve a much more natural sound.

This is a great post! Very useful and informative. Thanks for taking the time to explain things in detail. I really appreciate it !

My biggest concern about this song is the mud.and the word that you used , (“boxiness”) is right on the button. That’s the perfect word to describe what I’m hearing.

The visual sample you put up helps me to get a better mental picture of how I should approach the eq for this recording. I’m going to go back and eq each individual instrument with your advice in mind. The eq you did on the stereo mix definitely brought clarity to the music and cleaned a lot of the boxiness. Thanks so much !

[Wicked]

Thank you to everyone who commented and shared your advice here. I appreciate your help!

[Jon-Jon]

Mixwise, it needs some work to stop the buildup of mud and boxiness and balance the high end with the low end better.

You have a buildup around 115, and another big one at 180hz and at 370hz. There is also a broad lack of midrange in your mix centred around 800hz and extending up to about 1.5k. Also the highs and high mids are lacking from about 2.5k up.

The issue sounds like low/low mid buildup in the guitars bass and drums, and not enough midrange/high midrange in your guitar tones. The drums could also use more brightness. You’d be best to fix these issues at the track level on the individual elements, as this will achieve a much more natural sound.

okay, for us dummies, how did you come to these conclusions? Going by ear mainly or are you using a spec analyzer or other method?

Thanks, JJ

[ColdRoomStudio]

okay, for us dummies, how did you come to these conclusions? Going by ear mainly or are you using a spec analyzer or other method?

Thanks, JJ

Mainly by ear, but referencing plays a big role in that process.

For example, just comparing the Joe Satriani mix you posted with the OP’s mix on a decent studio speaker system should reveal some obvious overall frequency differences on a half-decent listening system. I think I referenced a Joe Bonnamassa track.

When I listen to a track and analyse it, it’s 4 steps:

1. Listen through and mentally propose and take note of what the issues are.
2. Find a comparable pro reference mix, level-match it and compare side-by-side to the mix in question, switching back and forth.
3. Switch on a Frequency analyser and see if the analysis visually confirms the issues previously proposed.
4. Grab an eq, sweeping around the problem frequencies, and try to improve the track to better fall into line with the frequency response of the reference track(s). Usually, at this point, I’m also using the frequency analyser in tandem with the eq to flatten out the frequency response somewhat, while still allowing for the Equal Loudness Contours (Fletcher-Munson) response pattern of human hearing, as well as any natural frequency bumps caused by the arrangement/instrumentation.

So yes, mainly ears, but eyes also.

[Jon-Jon]

okay, for us dummies, how did you come to these conclusions? Going by ear mainly or are you using a spec analyzer or other method?

Thanks, JJ

Mainly by ear, but referencing plays a big role in that process.

For example, just comparing the Joe Satriani mix you posted with the OP’s mix on a decent studio speaker system should reveal some obvious overall frequency differences on a half-decent listening system. I think I referenced a Joe Bonnamassa track.

When I listen to a track and analyse it, it’s 4 steps:

1. Listen through and mentally propose and take note of what the issues are.
2. Find a comparable pro reference mix, level-match it and compare side-by-side to the mix in question, switching back and forth.
3. Switch on a Frequency analyser and see if the analysis visually confirms the issues previously proposed.
4. Grab an eq, sweeping around the problem frequencies, and try to improve the track to better fall into line with the frequency response of the reference track(s). Usually, at this point, I’m also using the frequency analyser in tandem with the eq to flatten out the frequency response somewhat, while still allowing for the Equal Loudness Contours (Fletcher-Munson) response pattern of human hearing, as well as any natural frequency bumps caused by the arrangement/instrumentation.

So yes, mainly ears, but eyes also.

not to completely derail the thread (im going to start another thread, please come comment when I do)…but my current reality is basically I do 99% of my listening on headphones. how is that going to affect this process?

[Wicked]

not to completely derail the thread (im going to start another thread, please come comment when I do)…but my current reality is basically I do 99% of my listening on headphones. how is that going to affect this process?

I think most audio engineers/ mixers will tell you that headphones will exaggerate certain frequencies and create audio illusions that you won’t hear in non-headphones listening situations. Some people believe you can learn to mix accurately/ properly with headphones if you have the right cans. I don’t really know if there’s an absolute “yes” or “no” answer but I tend to believe you can do it if you learn which frequencies your headphones exaggerate or neglect. You might have to do a bunch of remixes and listen to them on other sound systems before you get it right but most of us home recording guys have to do that anyway. Actually, most pros do that too. They’ll check how their mixes translate on a cheap car stereo or on inexpensive computer speakers.

[gredd]

I like it. It reminds me of something my alter ego would play! Maybe create a bit more arrangement and variation after the second verse to keep it interesting but I am definitely a fan. Thanks for sharing.

[Wicked]

Thanks for listening and commenting, gredd.

I wrote this song just for something to use as a test for my new Scarlett interface and to learn how to operate Reaper (at that time). It really wasn’t a tune that I was serious about, but I did try to do it justice with my performance and note choices. There was no real thought put into the arrangement though. I doubt I’d ever go back to revisit this song but it’s a possibility.

Most of my songs have vocals and I have instrumental songs that I like much more than this one. At the moment I have well over 10 songs that are partially recorded, with the guitars, bass and vocal melodies completely written, with only about 50% of the lyrics finished…, and my biggest concern is the arrangements, as well as the unfinished lyrics.

I’m a bit overwhelmed with all of the other songs I’ve written that I haven’t even begun recording yet. I’ve got well over a thousand songs but I’m only somewhat serious about 80 to 300 of them. There’s too many songs and too little time! This has been a problem for many, many years now…and as I continue writing, I am falling further behind. I love writing songs but I fret about every little detail when I’m recording and arranging them…, especially the songs that I think are good. So, recently I’ve decided to be an “imperfectionist” and just demo my songs, instead of trying to get a full blown “radio ready” product. The demos will help me decide what needs changing , fixing, revising …, and what songs I should just forget about putting too much effort into. Maybe I’ll throw another one of my tunes on this forum for a bashing.