This is all such excellent input, thank you gents! As a matter of fact, I’ve been a big fan of Sinatra and Ella for a long time, and I know just what you mean about their mastery of phrasing. It was actually not until Sinatra died that I came to appreciate him, after seeing a two-hour retrospective on PBS on his musical career. Lots of footage from the studio, concert performances, etc, that demonstrated that the man was a musician through and through, not “just a singer” (a pejorative I would never use).
One piece from that show that I will never forget is him singing Old Man River, a cappella, while the band took a break. He just sat on the edge of the riser with the mic, closed his eyes, and sang. I was weeping by the time he was halfway through. I wish I could find a clip of that somewhere, but I have never been able to ever since. (If anyone has it, please share!)
I really appreciate this great advice for helping me try to raise my vocal game! I will give this a few days and see if I can make any headway-- but this may end up as something I try to work on for future songs, cuz I don’t want to leave this one waiting for weeks or months to get to that point… stay tuned.
Version 3 is now in the OP. I’m going to be posting all versions in the OPs of Bash threads from now on… upon reflection, that’s the way that will work best for those listening, and that’s the goal.
I’ve re-tracked the vocals taking the advice of @Jonathan and Andrew @ColdRoomStudio to try to make the feel more swingy and groovy. Although I did not strip naked and drink a bottle of single malt, I did have a couple beers and got myself into the right mindset. I will also say that having Jonathan’s B3 and piano tracks made a huge difference-- I tracked the original vox before I got his contributions. Singing along with the mix that included his tracks really helped me get into the proper groove to make a better delivery.
I also utilized his suggestion to use Voxformer on the rhythm guitar track, and I love love love how that sounds. Thanks again Jonathan! (I’ve actually gone back to Paralysis by Analysis and done the same thing to the electric guitars in that piece. It’s a go-to from here on out.)
Finally, I retracked all the harmonies as well, of course, given that the delivery is now pretty different. I added harmony to the second chorus, in addition to those on the third verse & chorus as on the previous version. So there is now a pretty nice set of changes throughout the song, it’s not the same from one section to the next anymore, lending more interest to the “arc” of the song IMO.
Overall I’m very happy with how this is going! The suggestions here have made for a significantly improved song. Many thanks, and I look forward to your take on this new version…
WOW!! That’s incredible. That vocal is 110% improved. Thats amazing. Granted I’ve heard the other mix about 30 times now, I noticed the difference at the very beginning, but the way that opened up space for the groove of the other instruments to come through was night and day.
I know that’s fun what that voxformer is doing, but it’s a little too much. Can you split the difference between them? Its sounding just a little too mashed.
I like the added punch to the snare. I can’t tell if its a function of compression or if you changed the snare completely. Its dryer and punchier. I think it fits but its clashing with the guitars. The newer snare takes up a lot of room in the mix, but I’m hesitant to say back it down, because I like the tone. I’m wondering what would happen if you leave the snare alone and just re-adjust the compression on the guitar. You’re using a real real good guitar. So we know that’s not the problem, and the groove your’e playing is clear and pronounced. No issues there either. Furthermore, if you’re using those Scuffham plugs, we can keep eliminating stuff and deduce things to pinpoint the issue. I think the guitar track issues are strictly mix related. What its really coming down to, is that I wish you could hear the natural tones of the amp sim breath a little more.
I think the harmonies on the second verse hurt more than they help. I’d pull them out. That’s a personal preference…others might agree or disagree…all good either way.
But way way way improved here. I can’t believe how much that vocal is making everything else come alive.
Listening to v3 as I type:
Indeed that’s a much better vocal take! Although there’s some of that weird room tone resonance in your vocal again (the same that I noticed in the other tune), perhaps you could chase this, somewhere around 200-400hz I would guess, a broad notch in the reverb return might help?
I’m not fond of what you changed on the rhythm guitars, I agree with Jonathan that it’s too much, it sounds a bit too smashed and I think the previous version sounded better. But yeah, the snare sounds definitely better, maybe just a little too loud now?
Still great improvement in terms of performance, so you’re heading in the right direction!
Don’t sweat it @chordwainer, …happens every time you get a new plugin (or figure out a new trick). A few months ago, I was so excited about the UAD LA2A’s, oxford inflator, and transient designer, when I first got them that I overused them so bad a client actually sent a mix back. Happens to all of us lol.
Thank you @Jonathan! Glad you like the new vocal. But I did absolutely nothing to the snare, it is entirely untouched from the previous version. So it must be my over-enthusiastic use of the Voxformer trick on the electric that is causing what you are hearing. I will adjust in the next rev - - very typical for me to overdo it when learning a new tactic!
But the only changes are the new vocal performances and the Voxformer on the Les Paul. I didn’t even change any processing on the vox given that it was sitting pretty well in the mix already. I made just the slightest adjustments to levels on vox and electric guitar but nothing within their signal chains (except that Voxformer on the LP).
And yeah, I have you in one ear saying “too much harmony” and Andrew @ColdRoomStudio in the other saying it cries out for harmony…
OMG. I couldn’t even tell. That was like one of the optical illusions that drops your jaw and makes you go duhhhhh, but you never would have known unless it was pointed out. I guess that just goes to show how significant the relative levels of each track are to each other. And how we naturally hear everything in context of whats around it.
This is THE take! Unfortunately, can’t comment on the mix, but on cans it sounds like @ptalbot is right about the room reverb. I would try this trick to get rid of the original reverb:
Double the vocal tracks. Heavily compress and flip phases on one of the tracks. You will then have a track without room reverb.
Thanks again guys for listening so closely. I think whatever you are hearing is not an artifact of my recording space; I put some significant cash into treating the whole room with GIK Acoustics bass traps and panels a few years ago. In fact, over that time I’ve gotten lots of comments about how good my acoustic guitar recordings sound tracked in this space with my AT4040 condenser, and if there were those kinds of systemic issues I would surely have noticed long ago. Here is a short clip of the vocal with all processing removed so that you can hear there is very little room bleeding in to the sound, at least as near as I can tell:
Do you still hear the same issue in this sample? Honestly, that low-mid range is a regular source of problems for me, it’s a crucial area that I rarely get right the first time…
And like the previous tune was before I addressed Patrick’s similar concern, this is an Izotope Nectar reverb on the vox. The message here may be to be careful using that. It’s dead simple to avoid, just deactivate the bundled reverb and use a send in the usual way instead. So I’ll give that a try after work tonight and see how it goes.
Definitely agreed on the over-smashed guitar, I’ve already adjusted that while I extracted that sample clip above, it’ll be a lot less obtrusive in the next rev.
No it’s not the room. I don’t hear it in your raw track.
I think it’s definitely in the Nectar reverb. Honestly I don’t care much for it, I have Nectar and it’s good as a channel strip for vocals, but I never use the reverb on it, it doesn’t sound good to me, and you cannot really tweak it.
I will sometimes use it for a quick mix on a scratch vocal when I’m lazy but I don’t think I’ve ever used it on a lead vocal.
Send your track to an external reverb, this way you will be able to better dial the frequencies with an EQ…
OK, V4 is now in the OP (@ptalbot Patrick, did you notice I edited to put all the clips up top again? Will do that as my SOP from now on)
I split the difference on the extra compression on the Les Paul, and switched reverbs from the built-in Nectar one to my usual reverb send approach. I agree Patrick, this Nectar reverb is no good, and I much prefer having the control of being able to treat the send channel any way I need to.
I think this sounds much better in a/b, both on the guitar and on the vox. Hope y’all agree!
Vocal sounds much better. No more of that nasty reverb mud. Les Paul better too.
Really cool song, it’s growing on me, especially with Jon’s tasty keys. Good BGVs as well.
Great job! :beerbang:
Hi cw First few seconds, I said Don Henly:) I see you have a ton of helpful comments already. I am listening and waiting to comment on something bad. Nothing yet. ha ha small nit, not much lift in the chorus? Guitar tone and feel great in the break. You sang more relaxed after the solo with a little more delay in the delivery. Beautiful lyrics btw. I am surprised by the slow fade out. I thought that was not the way to go anymore. It’s perfect for this song tho. Lots of possibilities for this lil track bud. Congrats
Why thanks Paul! Glad you like it. You are right, I was trying to have the vocal “evolve” through the song with the “swinginess” increasing as it goes.
Well, I must not have gotten that memo…! I fade things out all the time when I think that’s the right approach. But I’m so unhip I have trouble keeping my pants up, so who knows.
Wow, I hadn’t listened to the version with the new vocal - that is AWESOME. The transformation is amazing. The vocal just sits in the pocket so much better! Kudos to you, Dave!
Aw, shucks, thanks Andrew! @ColdRoomStudio But if it hadn’t been for the suggestion from you and @Jonathan to address it, I would not have even tried that, so right back atcha both!
I fade things out all the time when I think that’s the right approach. But I’m so unhip I have trouble keeping my pants up, so who knows. 
